By sifilings on
Church & Ministry
Bethlehem College and Seminary
John Piper
Bethlehem Baptist

The Bethlehem elders are announcing to the congregation their candidate for Associate Pastor for Preaching and Vision and, God willing, John Piper’s eventual successor as the church’s senior pastor. Jason Meyer, 36-year-old Assistant Professor of New Testament for Bethlehem College and Seminary, is the elders’ recommendation for congregational consideration and vote at a special May 20 all-church meeting.

Update on John Piper’s Transition See also: Jason Meyer: Candidate to Succeed John Piper

Discussion

Wed, 03/28/12
Jason Meyer is incredibly smart. His book on the end of the law is one of if not the best I have ever read. You can’t read and understand this book and still believe in covenantism.

http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Law-Covenant-Commentary/dp/080544842X/ref…] End of the Law

I wish Bethlehem would come full circle in their ecclesiology and not leave this to a vote. The elders should confirm him and be done with it. Nowhere in the Bible will you find a vote for pastors. Sigh…

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Wed, 03/28/12
[James K] Nowhere in the Bible will you find a vote for…
On what basis do you insist that we need to find that something was done in the first century church for it to be done today?

Wed, 03/28/12
Jonathan, I am going to side with NT principles on this. Elders choose elders. The membership do not vote. I know that is a baptist sacred cow, but that thing is fat and ugly with open sores.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Wed, 03/28/12
Yes, a congregational vote is part of the foundation of Baptist Polity. It’s one of many reasons we’re Baptists and not deep water Presbyterians.
[James K] Jonathan, I am going to side with NT principles on this. Elders choose elders. The membership do not vote. I know that is a baptist sacred cow, but that thing is fat and ugly with open sores.

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

Wed, 03/28/12
[Rob Fall] Yes, a congregational vote is part of the foundation of Baptist Polity. It’s one of many reasons we’re Baptists and not deep water Presbyterians.
I understand your thinking Rob. However, I specifically said NT polity. Can you show me where the early church voted on anything, much less elders? If not, maybe stop elevating it to biblical polity. By the way, the alternative to congregational vote isn’t only Presbyterianism.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Thu, 03/29/12
[Larry] Refresh me James … Where in the NT do elders choose elders?
Larry, I am glad you asked.

1 Thess 5:12-13 is one place that came to mind.

12 Now we ask you, brothers, to give recognition to those who labor among you and lead you in the Lord and admonish you,
13 and to regard them very highly in love because of their work.

In this text, whose job is it to lead?

In this text, whose job is it to admonish?

Do you think that leadership includes the preparation and training of those who will one day take over the duties of leader?

Those who are equipped to lead have been given the responsibility to do so. This includes training their replacements. The NT knows nothing of voting in church for anything. The idea of the sheep voting in the shepherds is tragically misguided at best. If the leadership of a church can’t replace itself, then they aren’t really the leaders.

This was originally praise for Meyer and just a lament against the process. I am willing to continue this discussion, but you will have to give an example of voting for pastors at some point. Let us leave the arguing from silence to the presbyterians and other paedos.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Thu, 03/29/12
[Joel Shaffer]
Refresh me James … Where in the NT do elders choose elders?
What about Titus 1:5, where Titus is told by Paul to finish what he started and appoint elders in every town?

Joel, don’t take all the fun out of this.



_______________________________________
http://www.utmgr.org/blog_index.html

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Thu, 03/29/12
[James K] Jason Meyer is incredibly smart. His book on the end of the law is one of if not the best I have ever read. You can’t read and understand this book and still believe in covenantism.

http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Law-Covenant-Commentary/dp/080544842X/ref…] End of the Law

I wish Bethlehem would come full circle in their ecclesiology and not leave this to a vote. The elders should confirm him and be done with it. Nowhere in the Bible will you find a vote for pastors. Sigh…
An example of their system of voting was in casting lots for an apostle to take the place of Judas. When was the last time you cast lots in your church…or is this only applicable to voting for apostles? Why not take THIS biblical pattern to choose your elders or pastors. It has scriptural backing and as far as I know no prohibition against it. Anyway I can’t imagine that Jesus is fussed over this. I CAN see Him however shaking His head and saying…’O children, children’.

Richard Pajak

Thu, 03/29/12
James and Joel, Thanks for the verses. However, I don’t see anything in those verses about elders appointing elders.

Titus 1 is the closest, but that isn’t elders appointing elders. In the most favorable reading to you, you have one apostolically appointed representative appointing elders in other churches (not his own). If I recall correctly, neither of you would favor a single elder with the authority to appoint things by himself. And I doubt that either of you believe that there are apostolically appointed representatives circulating in churches today. So on that account, the Titus passage would not in your favor.

1 Thessalonians doesn’t even address the appointing of elders, so any attempt to use that to argue for a self-perpetuating office of elder is clearly outside the text.

Yes, elder should train future elders, lead the church, etc. No one would dispute that. But that’s a long way from saying that the NT teaches that elders should select elders.

So again I ask, do you have any passages in support of the idea that elder select elders?

As for church voting, I won’t rehash that long discussion here, but simply point you to the places in the NT where the congregation makes a decision … or fails to make a decision as the case may be (Matt 18, Acts 6, 1 Cor 5, 2 Cor 1). To me, it is very hard to construct a polity that ignores these seemingly clear commands to congregations to do something together, and it is hard to imagine a means by which a congregation does something as a congregation without some form of voting. But again, this is an old issue, well hashed out and IMO thoroughly answered both here at SI and in reams of literature.

Thu, 03/29/12
Larry, that isn’t the only text. You are just being dismissive. Since you are indeed arguing from silence, and the perpetuity of the elders is a responsibility of the leadership, then the conclusion is that elders choose elders. The sheep do not choose the shepherd, they follow him.

Matt 18:17
If he pays no attention to them, tell the church.

The church doesn’t vote on anything here. They are told something. What are they told? They are told that he is to be treated as an unbeliever.

Acts 6:3
Therefore, brothers, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and wisdom, whom we can appoint to this duty.

This might be the closest thing to voting, but if you notice, the Apostles are the ones who appoint them. At best, the brothers are a nominating entity for deacons.

1 Cor 5:3
For though I am absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about the one who has done this thing as though I were present.

The decision was already made. They weren’t voting on what to do with the man. They had to carry out what the decision already was.

2 Cor 1

I am not sure what you are referring to here.

So the sum is that no voting exists in any of those texts. It seems that you want there to be, so you see it as such. In each instance, it backs up my view. The elders really are the leaders.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Thu, 03/29/12
[Richard Pajak]
[James K] Jason Meyer is incredibly smart. His book on the end of the law is one of if not the best I have ever read. You can’t read and understand this book and still believe in covenantism.

http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Law-Covenant-Commentary/dp/080544842X/ref…] End of the Law

I wish Bethlehem would come full circle in their ecclesiology and not leave this to a vote. The elders should confirm him and be done with it. Nowhere in the Bible will you find a vote for pastors. Sigh…
An example of their system of voting was in casting lots for an apostle to take the place of Judas. When was the last time you cast lots in your church…or is this only applicable to voting for apostles? Why not take THIS biblical pattern to choose your elders or pastors. It has scriptural backing and as far as I know no prohibition against it. Anyway I can’t imagine that Jesus is fussed over this. I CAN see Him however shaking His head and saying…’O children, children’.
Good question Richard. Lots were cast in the Old Covenant time. There is nothing to state that he should have done that when he did. In fact, Christ said to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father. He didn’t say to replace Judas. Regardless, casting lots would be more biblical than voting.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Thu, 03/29/12
Is it legitimate to argue that although Titus was asked to appoint elders it does not state HOW he was to do so?
He could have had discussions with elders and the members of the body.

Richard Pajak