#1 I’m not being fed and #3 We Don’t Go Deep Enoughcan be valid reasons to at least initiate a conversation with your church leaders. In other words, the expositional preaching of God’s Word is one of the most important aspects of the regular congregational meeting. Additionally, feeding and shepherding the congregation are two of the most important aspects of pastoral ministry. If church leaders cannot or will not properly feed and shepherd their congregations, then that is a valid reason to look elsewhere.
#8 The church is too political… My wife and I recently spent a couple months attending a small church (<50) where the people were very much into conspiracy theories and Christian nationalism. Their weekly prayer requests were often filled with references to both. In a larger church you will have a handful of these people. But, because they are in the vast minority, they usually don’t overly influence the church. But, in small churches, these folks tend to be more influential. Long story short, we tired of the constant drum beat of conspiracy theories and Christian nationalism in every service. So, we moved on.
I thought all 8 were pretty good reasons, in the right context. The key is giving things time, working on them, and what your other options are. #1 and #8 are especially important. A church that doesn’t handle the Scriptures well or has gotten caught up in politics has, on both counts, lost sight of why it exists. So the question then is, do we have other options in the community we live in or near it? Before that, though, the question is, do I stay and try to improve things or look for something better? That’s a hard one.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
these are good reasons to not leave, but also each one can be a legitimate reason to leave. Totally depends upon the situation. And as for talking to the leaders about your concerns, I have never had a positive response from a church leader about a concern I had, even when I was a Sunday School teacher, AWANA leader, or Sunday night preacher! The higher up pastor wanted it done his way… period. No discussion.
….but does “I’m not being fed” mean “the pastor is not preparing to preach a good sermon based firmly in the Word?” , or does it mean “I’m not coming to church ready to hear, process, and understand the sermon.”? I’ve seen cases of both. Sometimes, it’s the pastor watering things down, sitting on his hobby horse, or not preparing, and at other times, it’s because congregants have gotten so used to being spoon fed that they cannot or will not comprehend a solid sermon.
New pastor brings previously undisclosed doctrinal / practice quirks:
Real life example:
Asked by pulpit committee if he will work with the deacons? (Issue with departed pastor where he was a “go it alone” type of guy). Response = “yes! yes!”
Arrives and a year later presents his paper from seminary on “family-integrated worship”
Decision made by one man
Used to have children’s church and children’s Sunday school classes
New pastor brings previously undisclosed doctrinal / practice quirks:
Real life example:
Asked by pulpit committee if he will work with the deacons? (Issue with departed pastor where he was a “go it alone” type of guy). Response = “yes! yes!”
Arrives and a year later presents his paper from seminary on “family-integrated worship”
Decision made by one man
Used to have children’s church and children’s Sunday school classes
No more
Chairman of deacons and his wife leave
Church rattled
Wish we had known. Why didn’t he tell us?
There appears to be some ecclesiology issues at play here:
What is the role and responsibility of the pastor? (it is important to understand how the congregation answers this question and how the pastoral candidate answers this question)
What is the role and responsibility of the elders? (deacons do not exercise leadership over the church, only elders)
What process is followed when major changes are proposed? (Goes back to #1. Does the Lord lead his church through only one man or through a plurality of elders who share equally in the leadership and shepherding of the church? Is the pastor given carte blanche to make whatever changes he deems necessary?)
In my experience on a church elder board, even many elders don’t understand their leadership responsibilities. If the senior pastor wants to make a major change, most elders go along with whatever he proposes out of a (misguided) sense of deference to his leadership. This results in a CEO-led board model. The elders abdicate their leadership and become for all practical purposes mainly advisors to the pastor. That is not the model we’re given in Scripture.
Most people joining a church don’t ask these type of questions about how the church is led. A church may say it’s led by a plurality of elders, but in fact it’s a senior pastor led church.
….but does “I’m not being fed” mean “the pastor is not preparing to preach a good sermon based firmly in the Word?” , or does it mean “I’m not coming to church ready to hear, process, and understand the sermon.”? I’ve seen cases of both. Sometimes, it’s the pastor watering things down, sitting on his hobby horse, or not preparing, and at other times, it’s because congregants have gotten so used to being spoon fed that they cannot or will not comprehend a solid sermon.
Bert,
as I’ve said I have visited many church the last 8 months. In my experience, the problem is first pastoral preparation, skill, and focus (and perhaps the desire of the congregation). Do people come unprepared? Yes. But I am telling you, brother, what passes as preaching out there in general is pretty weak… You might need to get out more.
as I’ve said I have visited many church the last 8 months. In my experience, the problem is first pastoral preparation, skill, and focus (and perhaps the desire of the congregation). Do people come unprepared? Yes. But I am telling you, brother, what passes as preaching out there in general is pretty weak… You might need to get out more.
To Bert’s point, yes, sometimes people do say ‘not being fed’ when what’s happening is something more like ‘not being stimulated’ or ‘not being entertained.’ It’s actually a pretty fine line. The phenomenon of preaching clearly exists for a reason and the reason is larger than mere exposure to the Scriptures. If that was all there was to it, the command wouldn’t be to “preach” and “teach” but to just “read.”
So it follows that the pulpit ministry is supposed to accomplish some things. They may not be entirely summed up in the idea of nourishment.
When I was in college, there was a bit of an obsession on the claim that real fundamentalism (aka real Christianity) emphasizes preaching and neo-evangelicals emphasize teaching. Seems like I heard it constantly. (These were the days when the fundamentalist movement was already deep into “our main purpose is to preserve the movement” territory.) During one of these tirades, I started going through the pastoral epistles and underlining references to teaching. Later I went through with a different color to mark all the references to preaching. (This was before Logos and the like!)
The ratio was quite noticeable. The pulpit ministry is primarily a teaching ministry. Those belaboring the “preaching is the Bible way!!” claim were cherry picking evidence big time. (I still wouldn’t trade those college years for anything. Along with the, um, morons, I also met so many wise and wonderful people who taught wise and wonderful things!)
But humans being what we are, learning isn’t easy for us. We’re tired. We get bored. We have problems on our minds related to work, family, money, health, etc. And even without all that, we’re creatures of will and emotion, not just intellect—creatures of decision and feeling, not just information.
So teaching well has always involved creatively helping listeners stay engaged, challenged, stimulated, even—to a degree—entertained.
I’m not disagreeing with Bert on this though. Humans are also lazy, so you have a percentage who might say “not being fed” who just have no appetite for what’s on the table, though there is no defect in what’s on the table.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Years ago, a family came to our church raving about how they were finally being fed. They couldn’t say enough about the wonderful pulpit ministry. And then…
Their daughter became pregnant out of wedlock, and we endeavored to address the situation kindly but Scripturally. Suddenly, they decided to leave the church because they were no longer being fed. Hmmm.
Years ago, a family came to our church raving about how they were finally being fed. They couldn’t say enough about the wonderful pulpit ministry. And then…
Their daughter became pregnant out of wedlock, and we endeavored to address the situation kindly but Scripturally. Suddenly, they decided to leave the church because they were no longer being fed. Hmmm.
True, but have you actually visited many churches in your area? I’ll bet if you did, especially the ones you would never attend because they aren’t conservative enough for you, you’d be SHOCKED at how shallow they are.
No, Mark, I wouldn’t be shocked. I’ve had too many people report this after they have visited other churches. I find that the majority of professing Christians aren’t really looking for solid Biblical ministry, but the ones who are have trouble finding it.
No, Mark, I wouldn’t be shocked. I’ve had too many people report this after they have visited other churches. I find that the majority of professing Christians aren’t really looking for solid Biblical ministry, but the ones who are have trouble finding it.
Exactly, so there ARE a lot of churches where leaving over “not being fed” is a perfectly valid reason given the poor state of preaching in many of them.
Discussion
NewSome Valid Reasons Listed
#1 I’m not being fed and #3 We Don’t Go Deep Enough can be valid reasons to at least initiate a conversation with your church leaders. In other words, the expositional preaching of God’s Word is one of the most important aspects of the regular congregational meeting. Additionally, feeding and shepherding the congregation are two of the most important aspects of pastoral ministry. If church leaders cannot or will not properly feed and shepherd their congregations, then that is a valid reason to look elsewhere.
#8 The church is too political… My wife and I recently spent a couple months attending a small church (<50) where the people were very much into conspiracy theories and Christian nationalism. Their weekly prayer requests were often filled with references to both. In a larger church you will have a handful of these people. But, because they are in the vast minority, they usually don’t overly influence the church. But, in small churches, these folks tend to be more influential. Long story short, we tired of the constant drum beat of conspiracy theories and Christian nationalism in every service. So, we moved on.
NewAll the above
I thought all 8 were pretty good reasons, in the right context. The key is giving things time, working on them, and what your other options are. #1 and #8 are especially important. A church that doesn’t handle the Scriptures well or has gotten caught up in politics has, on both counts, lost sight of why it exists. So the question then is, do we have other options in the community we live in or near it? Before that, though, the question is, do I stay and try to improve things or look for something better? That’s a hard one.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewAs always with these lists
these are good reasons to not leave, but also each one can be a legitimate reason to leave. Totally depends upon the situation. And as for talking to the leaders about your concerns, I have never had a positive response from a church leader about a concern I had, even when I was a Sunday School teacher, AWANA leader, or Sunday night preacher! The higher up pastor wanted it done his way… period. No discussion.
NewPerhaps a matter of semantics....
….but does “I’m not being fed” mean “the pastor is not preparing to preach a good sermon based firmly in the Word?” , or does it mean “I’m not coming to church ready to hear, process, and understand the sermon.”? I’ve seen cases of both. Sometimes, it’s the pastor watering things down, sitting on his hobby horse, or not preparing, and at other times, it’s because congregants have gotten so used to being spoon fed that they cannot or will not comprehend a solid sermon.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
NewNew pastor brings previously undisclosed quirks
New pastor brings previously undisclosed doctrinal / practice quirks:
Real life example:
Wish we had known. Why didn’t he tell us?
NewWhat's the Role and Responsibility of the Pastor?
There appears to be some ecclesiology issues at play here:
In my experience on a church elder board, even many elders don’t understand their leadership responsibilities. If the senior pastor wants to make a major change, most elders go along with whatever he proposes out of a (misguided) sense of deference to his leadership. This results in a CEO-led board model. The elders abdicate their leadership and become for all practical purposes mainly advisors to the pastor. That is not the model we’re given in Scripture.
Most people joining a church don’t ask these type of questions about how the church is led. A church may say it’s led by a plurality of elders, but in fact it’s a senior pastor led church.
NewBert Perry wrote:
Bert,
as I’ve said I have visited many church the last 8 months. In my experience, the problem is first pastoral preparation, skill, and focus (and perhaps the desire of the congregation). Do people come unprepared? Yes. But I am telling you, brother, what passes as preaching out there in general is pretty weak… You might need to get out more.
NewSmiling
So I should get out and see a lot more disfunctional pastors rather than praying for my current pastor, Mark?
:^)
Sorry, Mark, just couldn’t resist…..
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
NewThe key ... "feed thyself"!
The key … “feed thyself”!
NewThe key ... "feed thyself"!
This sounds a lot like what Jesus told Peter in John 21.
NewFed vs entertained
To Bert’s point, yes, sometimes people do say ‘not being fed’ when what’s happening is something more like ‘not being stimulated’ or ‘not being entertained.’ It’s actually a pretty fine line. The phenomenon of preaching clearly exists for a reason and the reason is larger than mere exposure to the Scriptures. If that was all there was to it, the command wouldn’t be to “preach” and “teach” but to just “read.”
So it follows that the pulpit ministry is supposed to accomplish some things. They may not be entirely summed up in the idea of nourishment.
When I was in college, there was a bit of an obsession on the claim that real fundamentalism (aka real Christianity) emphasizes preaching and neo-evangelicals emphasize teaching. Seems like I heard it constantly. (These were the days when the fundamentalist movement was already deep into “our main purpose is to preserve the movement” territory.) During one of these tirades, I started going through the pastoral epistles and underlining references to teaching. Later I went through with a different color to mark all the references to preaching. (This was before Logos and the like!)
The ratio was quite noticeable. The pulpit ministry is primarily a teaching ministry. Those belaboring the “preaching is the Bible way!!” claim were cherry picking evidence big time. (I still wouldn’t trade those college years for anything. Along with the, um, morons, I also met so many wise and wonderful people who taught wise and wonderful things!)
But humans being what we are, learning isn’t easy for us. We’re tired. We get bored. We have problems on our minds related to work, family, money, health, etc. And even without all that, we’re creatures of will and emotion, not just intellect—creatures of decision and feeling, not just information.
So teaching well has always involved creatively helping listeners stay engaged, challenged, stimulated, even—to a degree—entertained.
I’m not disagreeing with Bert on this though. Humans are also lazy, so you have a percentage who might say “not being fed” who just have no appetite for what’s on the table, though there is no defect in what’s on the table.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewIt's a funny thing...
Years ago, a family came to our church raving about how they were finally being fed. They couldn’t say enough about the wonderful pulpit ministry. And then…
Their daughter became pregnant out of wedlock, and we endeavored to address the situation kindly but Scripturally. Suddenly, they decided to leave the church because they were no longer being fed. Hmmm.
G. N. Barkman
NewG. N. Barkman wrote:
True, but have you actually visited many churches in your area? I’ll bet if you did, especially the ones you would never attend because they aren’t conservative enough for you, you’d be SHOCKED at how shallow they are.
NewNot shocked
No, Mark, I wouldn’t be shocked. I’ve had too many people report this after they have visited other churches. I find that the majority of professing Christians aren’t really looking for solid Biblical ministry, but the ones who are have trouble finding it.
G. N. Barkman
NewG. N. Barkman wrote:
Exactly, so there ARE a lot of churches where leaving over “not being fed” is a perfectly valid reason given the poor state of preaching in many of them.