“if you don’t go to a large church, you are so stinking selfish…and don’t care about your kids.”

Behold - he apologizeth!

Has this guy ever been outside of metro Atlanta? Most places in America are not big enough to support mega-churches. I know plenty of towns where a church of 200 would be a mega-church.

I have heard John MacArthur say on numerous occasions, “If you can’t get your sermon out of your zip code you might want to throw it out and try again.” Andy Stanley is guilty of “zip code” violation. I dare him to come to our town thinking he’s going to build a megachurch, since there are only about 2000 people in the whole town. I have a really good Bible expositor friend who pastors a church in Kansas. Is he to leave the town of 900 to 1000 people in order to join a megachurch? And, why is it that my two girls, both of whom were raised in smaller churches, at times with no youth group at all, are faithful in church and love the church for which Christ died? I’m simply trying to determine if the man is just ignorant, or if he is determined to get even larger through a not so veiled attempt to guilt people into leaving their little churches and come join his church.

[Jonathan Charles]

Has this guy ever been outside of metro Atlanta? Most places in America are not big enough to support mega-churches. I know plenty of towns where a church of 200 would be a mega-church.

In 1990, there were 396 urban areas with 50,000 people or more. In 2010, there are 497 urban areas with at least 50,000 people. Right now 71% of the American population lives in those urban areas with 50,000 people or more. Our nation and world has become increasingly urban, even in the last 25 years. Although the majority of mega churches in America reside in large cities such as Atlanta, there are plenty of mega churches in smaller urban areas of 50 to 75 thousand people as well. Technically, at least 71% of the urban areas of America are big enough to support mega churches.

At the same time, I think Stanley’s comment revealed an arrogant heart, yet I am glad he apologized for his comments. I think some of us who pastor smaller churches (130-140 attend our church) have many youth that grew deep in their faith in Christ into adulthood without all the glitz and glamor of mega church youth groups and even have several college age students that purposely sought out a smaller church because they don’t want to get lost in a crowd and desire to serve Jesus in ways they wouldn’t be able to at a mega church. Our church is one of 6 daughter church plants from a well-known mega church in Grand Rapids. Thankfully our mother church had the wisdom and maturity to see the value of smaller churches as well.

I’m not talking about the % of population that live in urban areas, I’m talking about places. For example, I live in central PA, between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, there are hundreds of towns in between. Each of these places need a good church within driving distance, none of which will ever be large, by Stanley’s measure of largeness. According to Hartford Seminary 59% of church goers attend a church under 100, another 39% under 500. Only .05% attend a church over 2000. I would contend that this is because churches are not distributed only by population considerations, but by geographical considerations. Again, most places in our country cannot support a mega church.

[Jonathan Charles]

I’m not talking about the % of population that live in urban areas, I’m talking about places. For example, I live in central PA, between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, there are hundreds of towns in between. Each of these places need a good church within driving distance, none of which will ever be large, by Stanley’s measure of largeness. According to Hartford Seminary 59% of church goers attend a church under 100, another 39% under 500. Only .05% attend a church over 2000. I would contend that this is because churches are not distributed only by population considerations, but by geographical considerations. Again, most places in our country cannot support a mega church.

I agree with you if you are talking about places.

…to the Members of North Point Ministries Churches.

by Seth Dunn

Those people who are lost in sin, who are dead in sin, are not a part of the church. In fact, they are at enmity with God. According to what’s written in the Bible, they shouldn’t at all enjoy the activities and beliefs of the church.

We do not have to be in a urban area to see churches that have “mega” desires. In all the small towns I have lived in, there have been churches who have the same predatory desires (read Carl Trueman’s review of Stanley’s Deep and Wide to find out that he really is unapologetic about trying to get your young people, by hook or by crook, to North Point). The desire, a la Trump, to suck the oxygen and resources out of the environment and shut down the small church and vacuum up their people is real. Stanley has just said what others are doing….but won’t admit it.

Steve,

Thanks for pointing out Trueman’s review. Here is the address to go to if anyone is interested in reading it.

http://reformation21.org/articles/the-discreet-charm-of-the-bourgeoisie…

I belonged to a Baptist church for 20 years (1980-2000) that had a high-attendance day of 70. I currently belong to a Baptist church (2000-present) that has (recent) high days of 3,500 (and is still growing: our attendance has increased >30% in the past two years). Having seen & experienced both extremes, I firmly believe there is a place for all sizes of churches, and that there is no “right” or “ideal” size.

Tim Keller wrote a white paper a few years ago that argues exactly that point. Excerpts:

“Most people probably have a size-culture that they prefer. However, many people ‘moralize’ their favorite size culture and treat other size-categories as spiritually and morally inferior.”

“There is no “best size” for a church. Each size presents great difficulties and also many opportunities for ministry that churches of other sizes cannot undertake (at least not as well). Only together can churches of all sizes be all that Christ wants the church to be.”

Here’s one of many online links to the paper:

http://www.livingwatercc.org/images/VarArticles/ChurchSize2.pdf

(I’d encourage reading the entire paper.)

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ADDENDUM: Lest anyone conclude that my current church is driven by some sort of growth at-all-costs mentality, we have planted seven other churches throughout the years since my church was founded, which together have a combined attendance today in the thousands, and some of which have also planted additional churches themselves.

Your point about how every large church hasn’t “sold out” her doctrine is well taken. Thanks.

This is from Trueman’s review of Deep & Wide (linked somewhere above):

To be sure, as grateful as I am to the Rev. Stanley for the offer to pastor my children and for providing me with fascinating insights into the philosophical convictions of my long-suffering wife, I cannot help but see this as a remarkably naïve piece of muddled thinking.

This is quintessential, dry British humor at it’s very best!

….so I’m selfish because my church doesn’t resemble a home game of Da Bulls back when Michael played there? Am I getting that right?

Larry’s point about “grow at all costs” not being universal at large churches is well taken, but I’d (soapbox alert) still argue that large churches need to be extremely careful that they grow new leaders well and don’t just (e.g. 1st Baptist of Hammond, etc..) subsist on mega-personalities. And to be fair, so do smaller churches. I really appreciate the comments in the second link; ministry is local, it is personal, and it is familial, and in our era of anti-Christian sentiment, we may end up doing a lot of ministry in house churches like they do in China. We might as well do what we can to get people trained to lead such small assemblies now rather than when we lose our big churches.

(I may be wrong, but I’ve suspected a degree of persecution is coming for the Church where we’re going to be a lot closer to the model described in Acts 16… and we probably won’t be able to depend on having a villa for meetings like that Lydia may have owned)

I suggest Stanley go to next Rural Home Missionary Association conference and apologize.

http://www.rhma.org/index.php/conferences