Note the key word “reported.” Offenses “reported” does not equal “offenses committed.” And how many were reported in 2010 and in 2012 so far. A single year is not a statistically meaningful unit.
Note also all one student.
… and what does the category “forcible sex offenses” include? (and what constitutes a separate “report” vs. multiple issues on a single report)
Another key term “allow him to reapply.” Reapply does not equal “we will readmit him.”
The comments on the WSPA news item are quite amazing. Nine reports in a year just as easily fits a “campus cleaning house” or “campus with aggressive reporting” narrative as it does a “campus with sexual conduct problems” narrative. The BJU haters are only revealing their deep commitment to despise the university no matter what it does.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Quite the gap in my mind to what the reporter says is “forcible sex offense” and what the university says is “inappropriate behavior”. I looked on the data website and it shows -0- under “forcible sex offense”, but has the 99 burglaries mentioned in the article. Like Adam said, you could score high on this list if you are better at enforcement than the other schools.
The crime statistics found on this website represent alleged criminal offenses reported to campus security authorities and/or local law enforcement agencies. Therefore, the data collected do not necessarily reflect prosecutions or convictions for crimes
I know enough details that this is a total media smear job. The so-called burglaries are petty thefts that occurred in the dorms. Every school has petty theft. BJU prosecutes these very aggressively whereas most schools ignore them. I am not free to share the details of the so-called “forcible sex offense”. Suffice it to say that BJU reported these offenses immediately and accurately to the police and that the court assigned community service to the student offender.
Mike Harding has spoken. He is in a leadership position with responsibilities that most of us can never comprehend nor understand. He has superior inside information by virtue of his leadership position which cannot always be simply publicly divulged. Those who don’t know should keep their mouths shut and their judgments to themselves. I believe in spiritual leadership and authority. I accept what he says as authoritative and will not question it. Leave the judging to God and His appointed, anointed leaders over us.
But TBD is right about one thing. Judgment should come from the informed (and responsible) not from the uninformed and not responsible.
Prov. 18:13
…and yes, the uninformed should defer to the informed.
(TBD has a couple other things right, too but most of them not relevant)
Some more really good ones for the occasion…
Pr 18:15 The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.
Pr 18:17 The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him.
Pr 19:2 Also it is not good for a soul to be without knowledge, And he sins who hastens with his feet.
So many great Proverbs. So little time.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I know enough details that this is a total media smear job. The so-called burglaries are petty thefts that occurred in the dorms. Every school has petty theft. BJU prosecutes these very aggressively whereas most schools ignore them. I am not free to share the details of the so-called “forcible sex offense”. Suffice it to say that BJU reported these offenses immediately and accurately to the police and that the court assigned community service to the student offender.
First of all I know that stats are stats. They represent something (sometimes significant … sometimes not)
I trust BJU’s explanation and really am not that concerned about the number “9” above.
But: I doubt you really could substantiate your statement: “has petty theft. BJU prosecutes these very aggressively whereas most schools ignore them”
This is what I was taught. By my parents. During my four years as a student at BJU, and in every fundamental Baptist church I have ever been in. One pastor told us in staff meeting about a situation that involved sexual misconduct of a person in administration that the less said the better. If we didn’t know what happened, we were ordered, don’t ask. If we did know, we were not to tell. Anyone who violated that would be immediately terminated from employment. I know better than to question those in spiritual leadership or authority. Why?
1) Because if you are not in authority then you do not need to know.
2) Those in authority will not violate confidentiality matters so they cannot tell all they do know and have to be careful about what they do say—it is wiser to not say anything.
3) Those under spiritual leaders must learn to trust the judgment of their spiritual leaders to act appropriately; if they cannot be confident that they will, then they should remove themselves from under those spiritual authorities and find some they can trust.
4. Truth -seeking groups on Facebook are hardly credible sources of information; and, most likely any group parading itself as “truth-seeking” or “do right” has little to do with either truth or doing right. In fact, I am surprised none of those groups have been booted from Facebook or taken to court for libel or slander.
I believe in the axiom taught by a former pastor to those who worked in his church to just “Do as you are told and keep your ‘stinkin’ mouths shut. You best not disagree with the decisions of leadership. If you do, then you better do a good job of faking agreement, because if I find out about it, I will fire you so fast your head will spin!”
That advice has served me well over the years in reducing stress over a lot of things it was not my job to worry about.
Obviously I am not in a leadership position, and there is a good reason not the least of which is that I have no desire for it.
The dynamic between leadership and “followership” isn’t really all that complicated but it does require noticing the difference between “some” and “all.”
There are some things leaders need to know that the rest do not need to know (Prov. 11:13, 1 Tim. 5:13, Prov. 26:17)… but not all.
There are some things that leaders have authority over: i.e. the right to make decisions and expect them to be complied with (Rom. 13:1, Heb. 13:17)…. but not all.
There are some things we ought to obey without kicking up a fuss (Phil. 2:14) … but not all.
There are some things leaders are more skilled in and “know better” than the rest of us (they are leaders for a reason after all. Rom. 12:8) … but not all.
The list goes on.
If we collapse “some” into “all,” in what we teach, in what we perceive being taught, or in how we behave/react, it leads to nothing but trouble. But it’s just as disastrous (probably more disastrous) if we replace “some” with “no” and have no real leadership at all.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
No one needs to be smearing BJU. For too long, in fundamentalism, there has been too much smearing that takes place. It would be great to see a lot less of it.
It is also important to note that there is a crisis of accountability in professing Christian leadership today. As a result, constituents, for the most part, are not going to accept anything less than transparency. So, it takes real wisdom in dealing with matters like these.
Living here in Greenville, I must wonder what the true nature of the crimes were that BJU reported. I do not believe that Clemson and Furman don’t have just as much if not more crime on their campuses. It always interests me that when a Clemson student is involved in a wreck that kills someone, the school is mentioned just in passing, but if a BJ students does anything the story leads with the BJU connection. I’ve seen it too many times. In addition, there well may be a difference in how terms are defined. What is looked on as sin at BJU is often excused at other schools. Besides aren’t sex crimes dependent on the victim reporting it.
I think BJU needs our support and prayers more than ever. It is obvious to me that they have a giant bulls eye on their back. There are apostate groups out there who are trying to fundamentally force BJU to radically change from its founding purpose and mission. There are secular unbelievers who hope to embarrass and humiliate BJU in order to silence their influence culturally, politically, and theologically. The media in general have never been friends to BJU, even though BJU has corrected itself in numerous areas throughout the years. I wish I could say more concerning this latest distortion, but I can’t. I think issues like these are weighing heavily on the Jones family and the administration. Frankly, I think the pressure on Dr. Stephen Jones is extremely heavy; yet, he maintains a Christlike spirit in the midst of challenging health issues and religious persecution which I believe is Satanically inspired. Few ministries could endure the intense scrutiny under which BJU is constantly being placed.
BJU has always had a bulls-eye on it’s back, it’s just more obvious now because of the internet, facebook, twitter, etc. Do they need prayer? Of course. This doesn’t mean that they always do everything right, though, and I think that it would be VERY helpful to the school for them to realize that they can’t stonewall issues or questions away anymore. They’ve done it in the past and they continue to do so on some issues - the KJV non-answer issue (to preserve, in my opinion, the relationships with donors and supporters), the Jaeggli book that was unpublished three days after it was released, the Peterman thing, and now this.
There’s suffering for Jesus’ sake (which is commendable), and then there’s suffering because you’re refusing to cooperate or even present your side of the story or even just being stubborn. BJU occasionally falls into messes of their own making, and it’s hard to ‘credit’ them for ‘persecution’ as a result of that.
***
I was curious about the definition of ‘forcible sexual offenses’ in the report, so I looked up the definition. This is it:
Term: Sex offenses - forcible
Definition: Any sexual act directed against another person, forcibly and/or against that person’s will; or not forcibly or against the person’s will where the victim is incapable of giving consent.
It sounds to me like these ‘sex crimes’ that some are talking about could be anything from groping to rape. That doesn’t make it defensible, and I hope that the student is not readmitted to the school - especially with 9 offenses! - but it doesn’t automatically mean that BJU is covering up rapes as some commenters on that site (including our ‘esteemed’ fellow SI member Chris Peterman) want to believe.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Discussion
NewStatistics . . .
… are funny things.
Note the key word “reported.” Offenses “reported” does not equal “offenses committed.” And how many were reported in 2010 and in 2012 so far. A single year is not a statistically meaningful unit.
Note also all one student.
… and what does the category “forcible sex offenses” include? (and what constitutes a separate “report” vs. multiple issues on a single report)
Another key term “allow him to reapply.” Reapply does not equal “we will readmit him.”
The comments on the WSPA news item are quite amazing. Nine reports in a year just as easily fits a “campus cleaning house” or “campus with aggressive reporting” narrative as it does a “campus with sexual conduct problems” narrative. The BJU haters are only revealing their deep commitment to despise the university no matter what it does.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewI have a question about "reported" too
Does it mean it was reported to the police?
If so I presume no conviction resulted else there would be some sort of record of that.
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewConfused about terminology
Quite the gap in my mind to what the reporter says is “forcible sex offense” and what the university says is “inappropriate behavior”. I looked on the data website and it shows -0- under “forcible sex offense”, but has the 99 burglaries mentioned in the article. Like Adam said, you could score high on this list if you are better at enforcement than the other schools.
NewThe stats are public
http://ope.ed.gov/security/index.aspx
From front page of the above site:
The crime statistics found on this website represent alleged criminal offenses reported to campus security authorities and/or local law enforcement agencies. Therefore, the data collected do not necessarily reflect prosecutions or convictions for crimes
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewI know enough details that
I know enough details that this is a total media smear job. The so-called burglaries are petty thefts that occurred in the dorms. Every school has petty theft. BJU prosecutes these very aggressively whereas most schools ignore them. I am not free to share the details of the so-called “forcible sex offense”. Suffice it to say that BJU reported these offenses immediately and accurately to the police and that the court assigned community service to the student offender.
Pastor Mike Harding
NewThat Settles It for Me
Mike Harding has spoken. He is in a leadership position with responsibilities that most of us can never comprehend nor understand. He has superior inside information by virtue of his leadership position which cannot always be simply publicly divulged. Those who don’t know should keep their mouths shut and their judgments to themselves. I believe in spiritual leadership and authority. I accept what he says as authoritative and will not question it. Leave the judging to God and His appointed, anointed leaders over us.
TBD
NewUmm....
Slight bump in sarcasm/troll radar.
But TBD is right about one thing. Judgment should come from the informed (and responsible) not from the uninformed and not responsible.
Prov. 18:13
…and yes, the uninformed should defer to the informed.
(TBD has a couple other things right, too but most of them not relevant)
Some more really good ones for the occasion…
Pr 18:15 The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.
Pr 18:17 The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him.
Pr 19:2 Also it is not good for a soul to be without knowledge, And he sins who hastens with his feet.
So many great Proverbs. So little time.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewMedia smear - really
First of all I know that stats are stats. They represent something (sometimes significant … sometimes not)
I trust BJU’s explanation and really am not that concerned about the number “9” above.
But: I doubt you really could substantiate your statement: “has petty theft. BJU prosecutes these very aggressively whereas most schools ignore them”
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewSarcasm?
This is what I was taught. By my parents. During my four years as a student at BJU, and in every fundamental Baptist church I have ever been in. One pastor told us in staff meeting about a situation that involved sexual misconduct of a person in administration that the less said the better. If we didn’t know what happened, we were ordered, don’t ask. If we did know, we were not to tell. Anyone who violated that would be immediately terminated from employment. I know better than to question those in spiritual leadership or authority. Why?
1) Because if you are not in authority then you do not need to know.
2) Those in authority will not violate confidentiality matters so they cannot tell all they do know and have to be careful about what they do say—it is wiser to not say anything.
3) Those under spiritual leaders must learn to trust the judgment of their spiritual leaders to act appropriately; if they cannot be confident that they will, then they should remove themselves from under those spiritual authorities and find some they can trust.
4. Truth -seeking groups on Facebook are hardly credible sources of information; and, most likely any group parading itself as “truth-seeking” or “do right” has little to do with either truth or doing right. In fact, I am surprised none of those groups have been booted from Facebook or taken to court for libel or slander.
I believe in the axiom taught by a former pastor to those who worked in his church to just “Do as you are told and keep your ‘stinkin’ mouths shut. You best not disagree with the decisions of leadership. If you do, then you better do a good job of faking agreement, because if I find out about it, I will fire you so fast your head will spin!”
That advice has served me well over the years in reducing stress over a lot of things it was not my job to worry about.
Obviously I am not in a leadership position, and there is a good reason not the least of which is that I have no desire for it.
TBD
NewInteresting
Well it appears the lobotomy was a grand success!
Matthew
NewComplexity
The dynamic between leadership and “followership” isn’t really all that complicated but it does require noticing the difference between “some” and “all.”
The list goes on.
If we collapse “some” into “all,” in what we teach, in what we perceive being taught, or in how we behave/react, it leads to nothing but trouble. But it’s just as disastrous (probably more disastrous) if we replace “some” with “no” and have no real leadership at all.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewNo one needs to be smearing
No one needs to be smearing BJU. For too long, in fundamentalism, there has been too much smearing that takes place. It would be great to see a lot less of it.
It is also important to note that there is a crisis of accountability in professing Christian leadership today. As a result, constituents, for the most part, are not going to accept anything less than transparency. So, it takes real wisdom in dealing with matters like these.
NewI have to wonder ---
Living here in Greenville, I must wonder what the true nature of the crimes were that BJU reported. I do not believe that Clemson and Furman don’t have just as much if not more crime on their campuses. It always interests me that when a Clemson student is involved in a wreck that kills someone, the school is mentioned just in passing, but if a BJ students does anything the story leads with the BJU connection. I’ve seen it too many times. In addition, there well may be a difference in how terms are defined. What is looked on as sin at BJU is often excused at other schools. Besides aren’t sex crimes dependent on the victim reporting it.
Michelle Shuman
NewPrayer and Support
I think BJU needs our support and prayers more than ever. It is obvious to me that they have a giant bulls eye on their back. There are apostate groups out there who are trying to fundamentally force BJU to radically change from its founding purpose and mission. There are secular unbelievers who hope to embarrass and humiliate BJU in order to silence their influence culturally, politically, and theologically. The media in general have never been friends to BJU, even though BJU has corrected itself in numerous areas throughout the years. I wish I could say more concerning this latest distortion, but I can’t. I think issues like these are weighing heavily on the Jones family and the administration. Frankly, I think the pressure on Dr. Stephen Jones is extremely heavy; yet, he maintains a Christlike spirit in the midst of challenging health issues and religious persecution which I believe is Satanically inspired. Few ministries could endure the intense scrutiny under which BJU is constantly being placed.
Pastor Mike Harding
NewWell...
Mike,
BJU has always had a bulls-eye on it’s back, it’s just more obvious now because of the internet, facebook, twitter, etc. Do they need prayer? Of course. This doesn’t mean that they always do everything right, though, and I think that it would be VERY helpful to the school for them to realize that they can’t stonewall issues or questions away anymore. They’ve done it in the past and they continue to do so on some issues - the KJV non-answer issue (to preserve, in my opinion, the relationships with donors and supporters), the Jaeggli book that was unpublished three days after it was released, the Peterman thing, and now this.
There’s suffering for Jesus’ sake (which is commendable), and then there’s suffering because you’re refusing to cooperate or even present your side of the story or even just being stubborn. BJU occasionally falls into messes of their own making, and it’s hard to ‘credit’ them for ‘persecution’ as a result of that.
***
I was curious about the definition of ‘forcible sexual offenses’ in the report, so I looked up the definition. This is it:
It sounds to me like these ‘sex crimes’ that some are talking about could be anything from groping to rape. That doesn’t make it defensible, and I hope that the student is not readmitted to the school - especially with 9 offenses! - but it doesn’t automatically mean that BJU is covering up rapes as some commenters on that site (including our ‘esteemed’ fellow SI member Chris Peterman) want to believe.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells