The Mocker and the Brawler

This guy’s back must be hurting after sweeping so many generalities at one time.

I found the article helpful because …

• Has the strong Biblical warnings about drink: “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler” … while
• “not condemn[ing] the enjoyment of wine, [and] warn[ing] of the danger of intoxication”

The easiest and safest position is the total abstinence position.

Is wine the only inanimate object and/or substance that is attributed character traits by Scripture (i.e., it is a scorner; it is a brawler)?

[Jim]

I found the article helpful because …

• Has the strong Biblical warnings about drink: “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler” … while
• “not condemn[ing] the enjoyment of wine, [and] warn[ing] of the danger of intoxication”

The easiest and safest position is the total abstinence position.

C’mon Jim. The Bible not only doesn’t prohibit alcohol, it clearly expresses the blessing of using alcohol. It’s a gift. Abstinence, therefore, is not in alignment with what the Scriptures actually teach.

[dmicah]

[Jim]

I found the article helpful because …

• Has the strong Biblical warnings about drink: “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler” … while
• “not condemn[ing] the enjoyment of wine, [and] warn[ing] of the danger of intoxication”

The easiest and safest position is the total abstinence position.

C’mon Jim. The Bible not only doesn’t prohibit alcohol, it clearly expresses the blessing of using alcohol. It’s a gift. Abstinence, therefore, is not in alignment with what the Scriptures actually teach.

I didn’t call the total abstinence position Scriptural. I called it easy and safe. There is tension with wine and strong drink in the Scriptures:

• “… spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household” (Deuteronomy 14:25-27) with …
• “Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.” (Proverbs 20:1)

It’s easy to take the don’t do it at all position… and ignore the other

In defense of total abstinence … guaranteed never to be drunk AND never to offend a weaker brother. So it is safe in that sense.

Jim,

for every verse warning about the abuse of alcohol, there’s about 20 promoting it. so there’s little tension. If the Lord gave it as a gift, there is not tension. If Jesus made and consumed wine, there’ s not biblical tension.

The only tension comes from those who think Christians shouldn’t drink. At the end of the day, it’s a matter of conviction. But it’s not the “higher ground” or wiser position. It’s just a personal conviction.

BTW, I don’t buy the “offend a brother” portion of your argument. Usually that “offense” is simply bugging someone who doesn’t think a Christian should drink. Truly causing a brother to sin is a hypothetical so statistically anomalous it is more straw man than reality.

Do you apply your abstinence is best argument to marital relations??

Abstinence, therefore, is not in alignment with what the Scriptures actually teach.

So you would say that someone is disobedient if they abstain?

I commend Tenth Presbyterian for ….

• Warning on abuse of alcohol without
• Prohibiting alcohol

Baptists would be stronger advocates of “Biblical authority” if we did the same

While this question was not directed towards me, I’ll provide my view:

Larry asked: “So you would say that someone is disobedient if they abstain?”

My answer: Absolutely not. For many if not most this is a wise decision

Promoting it? Are we talking proscription or description? I can’t think of five verses that promote drinking for every one against its abuse let alone twenty.

“C’mon Jim. The Bible not only doesn’t prohibit alcohol, it clearly expresses the blessing of using alcohol.”

That is an absolutely false statement.
The Bible never uses the word “alcohol.” There was no such word for it in Bible times.

Scripture uses words for “wine” and “shekar.” They were used of alcoholic drinks; they were also used of nonalcoholic drinks.
The statement above is an “interpretation,” not “what the Bible says.”

When the Bible commends wine, the question is whether it is commending alcoholic wine or nonalcoholic wine.
And the Bible certainly, without a doubt, condemns alcoholic wine, the kind that makes you drunk. It describes alcoholic wine by the effect it has on you, then says it is a mocker, brawler, and not to even look at it (Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-35).

Finally, nonalcoholic wine was common in Bible times and easily preserved and available. They had a choice then, just as we do today. The right choice is abstinence from beverage alcohol.
David R. Brumbelow

Micah, if it was so obvious as you claim, why did Paul have to tell Timothy to drink some because of his illness? Why do you think Timothy wasn’t drinking some?

Nothing to disagree with in that article, the man speaks truth. I didn’t see it as either promoting (as such) or forbidding adult beverages. I don’t see scripture doing this either. I think it does come down to personal conviction.

[James K]

Micah, if it was so obvious as you claim, why did Paul have to tell Timothy to drink some because of his illness? Why do you think Timothy wasn’t drinking some?

James, there is no context for the statement…all that is known was that Timothy had a stomach issue and Paul told him to take some wine. Use something else to support your position. This passage does nothing to support your view.

We don’t know that Timothy wasn’t taking some wine…
We don’t know why Timothy was or was not taking wine…

We don’t know the nature of Paul’s advice…i.e. “Have you tried taking Nyquil for your cough?” does not imply that the other person has a specific prohibition or predisposition against Nyquil….

We don’t know the alcoholic content of the “wine”…though we may presume it to be more alcoholic for it do do any good…

Todd, I never gave my position. I asked a couple of questions.