Given the prevalence of the “prosperity gospel”, I think it’s a shame that Piper is not very willing to call some of them out by name and explain why their doctrines are heretical. You add the “televangelists” to Osteen, Jakes, and the like, and you are talking about a serious number of people going to Hell, in part because orthodox pastors are not willing to confront this.
And again, kudos to MacArthur for pointing out that if your best life is now, Hell is coming up. Yikes!
How strange of Piper to say this. he has one of the most powerful anti-prosperity Gospel messages out there, which I think he references in his weak statement here.
not strange…. piper’s saying he doesn’t want to waste time focusing on personalities he doesn’t have time to thoroughly research and might misquote or might misrepresent a quote when he can see a much greater benefit and impact on his church by helping them realize the ways they need to give up their own covetousness, materialism, etc. using clear scripture instead of trying to knock down a guy the vast majority of his church isn’t even listening to.
not strange…. piper’s saying he doesn’t want to waste time focusing on personalities he doesn’t have time to thoroughly research and might misquote or might misrepresent a quote when he can see a much greater benefit and impact on his church by helping them realize the ways they need to give up their own covetousness, materialism, etc. using clear scripture instead of trying to knock down a guy the vast majority of his church isn’t even listening to.
I’m with Chris on this one - I’m not sure that any pastor in a church the size of Bethlehem (although he’s no longer there) to be spending a lot of time delving into the various heresies and heretical teachers in order to rebut them. I think MacArthur was right to do it because I think his platform is so much larger than Pipers (via the Grace To You ministry) and because he’s remarked in more than a few messages that these people are liars and deceivers. I think Piper’s got a point and agree with that, but I also think MacArthur had a larger platform and therefore the need was greater.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
not strange…. piper’s saying he doesn’t want to waste time focusing on personalities he doesn’t have time to thoroughly research and might misquote or might misrepresent a quote when he can see a much greater benefit and impact on his church by helping them realize the ways they need to give up their own covetousness, materialism, etc. using clear scripture instead of trying to knock down a guy the vast majority of his church isn’t even listening to.
I’m with Chris on this one - I’m not sure that any pastor in a church the size of Bethlehem (although he’s no longer there) to be spending a lot of time delving into the various heresies and heretical teachers in order to rebut them. I think MacArthur was right to do it because I think his platform is so much larger than Pipers (via the Grace To You ministry) and because he’s remarked in more than a few messages that these people are liars and deceivers. I think Piper’s got a point and agree with that, but I also think MacArthur had a larger platform and therefore the need was greater.
Personally I don’t think anyone is advocating “spending a lot of time” refuting heretics but I personally think that a guy with Piper’s influence can do a lot to correct a lot of bad theology. He has written some excellent stuff against the New Perspective and that had to have taken a massive amount of time.
Alex Guggenheim made an interesting point on this here. I echoed it here. Scott Aniol saw the same similarity, but came to different conclusions here. And D. G. Hart sees the same connection here.
Perhaps this might explain something. Or not. But the similarities are striking.
Pretty interesting Don. I think I would have to agree with Aniol on this . The book he links by Edwards directly addresses the idea. I read it a long time ago and even though I have some concerns with Edwards in this area (his wife more) I don’t think he at least can be charged with the same idea as Olsteen is advocating. I can’t comment on Piper because I haven’t read his book.
It’s interesting to see many reactions on this thread to 4 1/2 year old comments by Piper and sparse comments on MacArthur’s statement. I would venture the assertion that Piper opposes the prosperity gospel and Osteen. Does anyone here think that he supports Osteen and his ilk? Piper’s 2012 statement denouncing the prosperity gospel that is referenced a few posts back is more potent than any I’ve heard from his detractors.
It seems that some people treat him and Osteen the same. One is our brother and one is not.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
To clarify my own position: I simply stated that he has a good platform for denouncing heresy and that he should do it. I believe Piper would (and has) denounce the Health Wealth and Prosperity gospel as a false gospel.
It’s good to see that a militant evangelical like Mac can continue to demonstrate what Biblical militancy looks like. Notice Mac shows up for the fights that matter.
That’s probably the big lesson here.
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
Discussion
NewGood to have someone warning
Good to have someone warning about some of the wolves out there.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Newinteresting view from piper
interesting view from piper on this (from 2010)
http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-it-ever-appropriate-to-call-ou…
NewChrisC wrote:
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
NewChip Van Emmerik wrote:
Concise. And accurate. You I mean, not Piper.
NewGiven the prevalence of the
Given the prevalence of the “prosperity gospel”, I think it’s a shame that Piper is not very willing to call some of them out by name and explain why their doctrines are heretical. You add the “televangelists” to Osteen, Jakes, and the like, and you are talking about a serious number of people going to Hell, in part because orthodox pastors are not willing to confront this.
And again, kudos to MacArthur for pointing out that if your best life is now, Hell is coming up. Yikes!
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
NewStrange
How strange of Piper to say this. he has one of the most powerful anti-prosperity Gospel messages out there, which I think he references in his weak statement here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-V_91c5ojU
Newnot strange
not strange…. piper’s saying he doesn’t want to waste time focusing on personalities he doesn’t have time to thoroughly research and might misquote or might misrepresent a quote when he can see a much greater benefit and impact on his church by helping them realize the ways they need to give up their own covetousness, materialism, etc. using clear scripture instead of trying to knock down a guy the vast majority of his church isn’t even listening to.
NewYes
I’m with Chris on this one - I’m not sure that any pastor in a church the size of Bethlehem (although he’s no longer there) to be spending a lot of time delving into the various heresies and heretical teachers in order to rebut them. I think MacArthur was right to do it because I think his platform is so much larger than Pipers (via the Grace To You ministry) and because he’s remarked in more than a few messages that these people are liars and deceivers. I think Piper’s got a point and agree with that, but I also think MacArthur had a larger platform and therefore the need was greater.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
NewJay wrote:
Personally I don’t think anyone is advocating “spending a lot of time” refuting heretics but I personally think that a guy with Piper’s influence can do a lot to correct a lot of bad theology. He has written some excellent stuff against the New Perspective and that had to have taken a massive amount of time.
Newan observation with respect to Piper and Osteen
Alex Guggenheim made an interesting point on this here. I echoed it here. Scott Aniol saw the same similarity, but came to different conclusions here. And D. G. Hart sees the same connection here.
Perhaps this might explain something. Or not. But the similarities are striking.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
NewPretty interesting Don. I
Pretty interesting Don. I think I would have to agree with Aniol on this . The book he links by Edwards directly addresses the idea. I read it a long time ago and even though I have some concerns with Edwards in this area (his wife more) I don’t think he at least can be charged with the same idea as Olsteen is advocating. I can’t comment on Piper because I haven’t read his book.
NewInteresting
It’s interesting to see many reactions on this thread to 4 1/2 year old comments by Piper and sparse comments on MacArthur’s statement. I would venture the assertion that Piper opposes the prosperity gospel and Osteen. Does anyone here think that he supports Osteen and his ilk? Piper’s 2012 statement denouncing the prosperity gospel that is referenced a few posts back is more potent than any I’ve heard from his detractors.
It seems that some people treat him and Osteen the same. One is our brother and one is not.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
NewTo clarify my own position: I
To clarify my own position: I simply stated that he has a good platform for denouncing heresy and that he should do it. I believe Piper would (and has) denounce the Health Wealth and Prosperity gospel as a false gospel.
NewMilitancy and Mac
It’s good to see that a militant evangelical like Mac can continue to demonstrate what Biblical militancy looks like. Notice Mac shows up for the fights that matter.
That’s probably the big lesson here.
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;