"Phonity. noun: superficial unity for which fundamental differences are ignored."

doesn’t believe in “gibberish” tongues, but the “human” language variety. Correct?

Edit— As Larry suggested, I googled “Piper tongues” and found this

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/piper-on-prophecy-and-tongues

I didn’t realize Piper was that far into continuationism. I was under the impression he was a little shallower.

M_S, I don’t think anyone is promoting tongues speaking here. I think they are just more concerned with your lack of discussion/argumentation skills.

I just wanted to clarify that what I said about fundamentalists setting themselves up as God’s communication gatekeepers: I’m not necessarily talking about sign gifts themselves. I just have observed that we tend to go overboard in limiting how God, through the Spirit, works in us, communicates to us, etc., generally.

to be about Calvinism and its connection to Charismatics.

because one guy in our church brought this up with our international singles group. they advertise on social media, so it’s a mix of baptists, pentacostals, charismatics.

And he was saying, why do we allow this when they have such serious doctrinal fallacies—believe in apostleship, revelation, etc.

It’s made me wonder if there are systematic theology books by charismatics that spell all this out, b/c it’s kind of a hodge-podge of understanding it, from what I’ve experienced.

Like most of them don’t think their daily “visions” or revelations are on the level of Scripture revelation, if you press them, I don’t think. Though they might act on it with that level of surety for a time.

I was in a directors meeting once, and the head guy had us all close our eyes for several minutes to see what visions God would give about a particular issue. then they went around and shared them, trying to observe how they were related to the issue at hand.

They tend to pray very loudly; I haven’t yet figured out the significance of this. Some, when they speak in tongues, it’s just a clicking sound. Others, it sounds more like language. I have never seen it where it’s obviously a work of the Spirit though.

Anyway …

I have wondered if it will come a time in the US when protestants will work together more because there will be so few. I have only had contact with them because of my pro-life work. But I’m glad for the experience. I’ve never really been in a conflict-of-interest with them doctrinally really. Our work together has a different focus.

I generally consider myself a pretty lenient fundamental Baptist. I use non-KJV bibles. I happen to like Petra, the CCM rock band, though I would never use it in church and I rarely listen to them today, etc…I am certainly not a Calvinist though. And I am no longer a Charismatic and I try to fight against that error when I can.

But compared to the POSTERS at Sharper Iron I sound like Jack Hyles.

[Mark_Smith]

Anne, I want this thread to be about Calvinism and its connection to Charismatics.

Which is why your posting history is germane. Pointing that out is not an attack, a typecast, or being castigated. You want me to stop pointing it out? Then don’t post repeatedly on one topic.

Mark, you can attack me all you want. If you want to start a thread about Calvinism and Charismatics, stop hijacking other threads and go start your own. This thread is about false unity, not Calvinism/Charismaticism bashing.

This thread IS about Calvinism and Charismatics!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I suggested the false unity comes from Piper/Grudem. Other people then started drifting from that attacking me.

I didn’t start it.

Am I wrong?

Other people then started drifting from that attacking me.

Asking you to justify a disparaging and gratuitous comment about someone is attacking you?

(And to answer a question you asked earlier: http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/piper-on-prophecy-and-tongues)

I’ll leave. The thread issue is being ignored. Have a nice day.

I NEVER hijacked the thread. This thread is about the connection between Charismatics and Calvinists. The starting link sought to remind people of the difference. I suggested Piper was a cause of the false unity. That is all I’ll say since the topic has degenerated.

Larry: I don’t see how Charismaticism & Calvinism are irrelevant to this discussion. The quote in the OP includes both (considering the obvious connection between Calvinism and Reformed theology).

Mark,

I don’t think that Piper has been all that influential on the specific issue connected to continuationism. I say that mainly because more people than not have been surprised when I have told them that he is a continuationist. Clearly he is, but it is also clear that he has not made that a dominant note of his public ministry (aka outside of BBC).

Grudem has been more influential in attempting to lay a foundation for continuationism—in fact, Piper had him in to lead one of their pastor’s conferences years ago as Piper was becoming more open about this matter. I’m not certain, though, that many people have even read Grudem’s work on prophecy.

In reality, it was probably more works like Carson’s Showing the Spirit and a load of other works in the 80s and early 90s that paved the way. Long before I had heard of Piper or Grudem, exegetical defenses were being made by those who were wrestling with the Third Wave movement. the cumulative effect of those defenses did more to create an openness toward the gifts than any particular popular preacher.

I think, too, that this is not a Calvinistic issue—there have been defections from the cessationist position across the board. It probably seems more significant mainly because the Calvinists were so vocally cessationist during the Pentecostal and Charismatic aspects of the movement. The Third Wave forced a number of younger Calvinist exegetes to engage the issue in the 80s and many of them came away less convinced of their forefathers’ defenses.

As an aside, but I think a pertinent one, the shift toward a more Kingdom now theology in evangelicalism (already-not yet/realized eschatology) probably has more to do with this than is often recognized. John Wimber, a chief figure of the Third Wave, openly said that his views were the outgrowth of what he learned re: inauguarated eschatology/kingdom theology under Ladd. He thought that a cessationist view of inaugurated eschatology was unfaithful to the text. Personally, I’m inclined to agree with him—I have never understood the halfway house that wants the presence of the kingdom without the signs of the kingdom. Wimber, I think, was right to say you have to choose one or the other. I think he chose wrongly, though.

Larry, point taken that this is not the focus of the article. And, yes, of course I read the article.

The Reformed bit only comes when he defines them by the line “which I assume to be cessationist.”

I find that bit to be intriguing, that’s all. Did you notice that the text you quoted has an asterisk which points to this article? That’s why I thought this wasn’t totally irrelevant to the article.

The blog starter is the Thirsty Theologian. He is clearly a Calvinist. I was using Calvinist as a synonym for Reformed. He uses the “sola gratia…semper reformanda” in his title. The man is a Calvinist. OK.

The actual text has near the beginning “As long as Reformed—which I assume to be cessationist*—and Charismatic Christians continue to pretend the differences between them are minor and sweep them under the couch, their unity is fake, false, phony, fraudulent, and fraught with failure.” He assumes all Reformed believers are cessationist. That is his point. He provides a link to another article making the same assertion. In that article there is a picture that features none other than Grudem, Piper and Mark Driscoll. Clearly though, not all Reformed believers are cessationist. Some have drifted over into continuationism.

The author is speaking to Reformed believers, asking them to reconsider the fashionable connection among some of them with Charismatics. I addressed that by suggesting that one reason for the appeal between Reformed believers (i.e. Calvinists) and Charismatics is continuationist leaders like Piper and Grudem.