By sifilings on
Fundamentalism & Evangelicalism
Kevin Bauder
In The Nick of Time
Charismatic?

Discussion

Fri, 07/26/13

Bauder says

“While Grudem eventually left Vineyard, that move did not separate him

from the Charismatic Movement. In fact, it really began a new variation
within the Third Wave. Numbers of evangelical leaders have been drawn
to Grudem’s softened view of prophecy while standing within the overall
structure of Third Wave Charismatic theology. Comparable views have been
expressed by John Piper, Sam Storms, and C. J. Mahaney’s Sovereign Grace
Ministries. These individuals do not represent a departure from the Charismatic
Movement, but a new development within it. Their commitment to
the continuation of supernatural gifts (the charismata) remains unaltered, as
does their grounding of these phenomena in inaugurated eschatology. They

are still Third Wave.”

Seems like he just called Piper a Charismatic. Given how highly Piper is revered by many at Sharper Iron, are these fightin’ words, or are they accepted as fact?

Fri, 07/26/13

Bauder said “Their commitment to the continuation of supernatural gifts (the charismata) remains unaltered, as does their grounding of these phenomena in inaugurated eschatology.” That is a LOT more than prophecy. It includes tongues, other gifts like healing, miracles, words of knowledge and wisdom, etc.

Fri, 07/26/13

Mark,

If you have read or listened to Piper over the years, he clearly advocates aspects of the kinds of gifts you mentioned. Just a simple search online of “John Piper and tongues” will demonstrate it.

Sat, 07/27/13

I have always been frustrated by Piper’s stand (actually lack of a stand) on this issue. A guy who has done such careful study and delineation of the “Doctrines of Grace” (etc., etc.) says “I don’t want to quench the Spirit” when it comes to determining if charismatism has a biblical basis or needs to be condemned. Thankfully he has not done this with the “prosperity gospel,” which is an offshoot of the charismatic movement.

However, since he does not practice nor promote the “charismatic” gifts, I do not think he should be placed in the same category with Sam Storm, Grudem, etc.

MS -------------------------------- Luke 17:10

Sat, 07/27/13

I think Piper can be said to have promoted charismatic gifts over the years. But here is something he said in an interview that may give some perspective. I think we can safely say that in his mind, he is trying to be faithful to the Scripture…I would say very much like Grudem.

I put a stack of books up on the pulpit, with Wimber and John White and all the books being written by Third Wavers on one side, and all the anti-charismatic stuff on the other side (MacArthur, and the historic stuff by Warfield and so on). And I said “Now, those are the two things, and what I want us to do as a church is…” and I put my hand between them, “I wanna know where we line up here. [laughs] And that’s what I’m preaching these ten messages for. Join me in the struggle, because I want us to be biblical. Biblical, biblical, biblical. I don’t care what people say about this group or this group, I want us to be biblical.”

And so, we sent a busload of fifty people out to a Vineyard conference to listen. I went to that, and then they came to town and we went over there. I just encouraged my people, and said: “Be discerning, your Bible is your authority, don’t let anyone sweep you away, don’t fall down because they tell you ‘you should fall down’ or anything like that, but check out and see what’s discerning, what’s biblical here and what is of the Lord”.

And I think that’s the way we should handle all awakenings and renewals. And I think there was genuine there and there was chaff there. Anytime God seems to be doing something unusual, it gets messed up pretty bad by the devil. It did for Jonathan Edwards in his day, and it has today.

Now that was the context of the Acts messages. I can’t remember exactly what I preached, but it was about discernment as to the place of tongues, the place of prophecy, the place of gifts of faith, and miracles, and so on. And to this day, I’m convinced that the arguments that those have decisively ended are not compelling arguments.

However, it seems to me, both biblically and experientially, that there was an extraordinary outcropping of supernatural blessing surrounding the incarnation, which has not been duplicated at any point in history. Nobody has ever healed like Jesus healed. He never failed, he did it perfectly, he raised people from the dead, he touched and all sores went away, and he never blew it. He didn’t go around lengthening legs, you know…

http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2011/10/a-conversation-with-john-piper/

Sat, 07/27/13

So if someone believes that it’s possible for God to grant someone a supernatural gift such as the ability to speak a foreign language, would that person be a charismatic?

And maybe someone ought to start a thread giving the Biblical reasons for the cessation of spiritual gifts and clarify the matter.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Sat, 07/27/13

was learning Spanish without taking classes, that would be one thing. In 12 years of attending Charismatic churches of various stripes, I never heard anyone seeking to know Russian, or Spanish, or Mandarin. They wanted a special prayer language…a hotline to God. Something to spiritually edify them.

Now, from what I can tell, Piper doesn’t endorse a special prayer tongue, but he doesn’t discourage it either. He leaves it unanswered…Follow the Bible is what he says. I’ve heard him say that this kind of tongues has waxed and waned at different times when he was Pastor as Bethlehem Baptist. So his silence is deafening given his strong views on other subjects. Is he afraid to come down one way or the other on the issue? Perhaps he simply doesn’t have an answer that he is satisfied with, but that seems unlikely.

Sat, 07/27/13

How many more articles on cessation do you want Ron? Surely this site has had more than enough but all have failed to change the minds of the charismatic because in the end his guide is Scripture and not mans opinion. For the committed Cessationist it just serves to bolster his current thinking.

Richard Pajak