It’s like every other sport out there… and most board games too (chess!). Everybody participating knows that feints are part of the strategy. And if everybody knows, it’s not “lying.” It’s just part of the game.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Ethics in sports is always an interesting conversation. However, I think there are better starting points than this. For instance, is it right for a Christian to deliberately break the rules in basketball by fouling to stop the clock?
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Yes, because you do it openly, expect to be caught, do not lie about it, and are fully prepared to take the consequences. As such, it is legitimate strategy.
That’s not the same as doping, which is done secretly with the expectation of not getting caught, and if caught, usually results in lies and protests in the face of stipulated consequences.
If an athlete took drugs openly, he would be disqualified from playing. End of game, end of season, end of career, end of story.
So the ethics are relative? It’s justifiable to break the rules sometimes? He’s still disqualified from playing for fouling - he can foul out for repeated offenses.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Of course he can foul out. It’s the risk he takes for playing aggressively. Should he pull back and let the other team score without having to overcome his team’s defense? Or should he play defensively and risk committing a foul? (Doing so openly, and understanding and accepting the consequences.)
If someone fouls intentionally to stop the clock it is, by definition, an “intentional” foul and calls for two shots and the team fouled retaining possession. Few officials have the chutzpah to call it.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Deception is part of the game, as in war. More interesting questions to me involve hurting people, such as cleats in the face when you slide, beaning a batter intentionally, or clearing the bench with the other fellows to avenge a wrong.
The problem of using this is that the umpire still has to make the final call (ball/strike), as well after the game MLB evaluates every play/pitch with the umpires and gives them a grade. their calls have gotten a lot better with the advance in technology.
Now last year Jeter was clearly not hit by the pitch, but the umpire was “conned” into it by Jeter putting on an act…that is cheating/lying/deception…after the game Jeter as much as admitted it.
Deception within the rules is one thing (hidden ball trick), but breaking the rules on purpose lends itself to situational ethics, as Charlie suggested.
The problem of using this is that the umpire still has to make the final call (ball/strike), as well after the game MLB evaluates every play/pitch with the umpires and gives them a grade. their calls have gotten a lot better with the advance in technology.
Now last year Jeter was clearly not hit by the pitch, but the umpire was “conned” into it by Jeter putting on an act…that is cheating/lying/deception…after the game Jeter as much as admitted it.
Deception within the rules is one thing (hidden ball trick), but breaking the rules on purpose lends itself to situational ethics, as Charlie suggested.
Doug,
What’s the difference between deception within the rules and breaking the rules?
I keep going back to the basketball context. Not talking about playing aggressive defense and being ruled to have broken the rules, but about making a conscious decision at the end of a game to foul the other team in order to stop the clock and get the ball back (other team has the ball and a 1 point lead with 10 seconds on the clock. No foul means they run out the clock and win; foul means they shoot free throws and may go up by 3 but have to give the ball back to you). The point is that a Christian is faced with a decision to clearly break the rules and defy the authority of the governing bodies (those who made the rules and those refereeing the game).
This is analogous to a gentleman on the radio just this morning. He argued that telling a credit card company you were no longer going to try to pay off your credit card debt was not a moral issue because the credit card company had written procedures for how to handle nonpayment before the transaction ever took place. This was simply a part of the contractual agreement. Seems like exactly the same issue.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Nonsense like that is why I hate international soccer. That foolishness would stop if they started handing out bans for taking a fall like that that causes a player to be ejected. The NBA is trying to cut down on flopping, but it is still so bad I consider it practically unwatchable.
Legitimate, accepted strategies such as fouling to stop the clock in basketball, are part of the game. The fouling rule in basketball is one that is meant to be broken. That’s why you get 5 or 6 per game.
No wisdom, no understanding, and no counsel will prevail against the LORD. Proverbs 21:30
Sounds very relativistic, that rules were meant to be broken, that’s why they have written procedures for when they are broken. I guess the guy I mentioned earlier was right about the credit cards. Everyone accepts that not paying the credit card back i part of the contract, so it’s not really a moral issue of making a promise then breaking it. Rules are relative, as long as everyone agrees it’s ok to break them, oh wait…
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
“In professional baseball, under Rule 8.05(i), a balk occurs if the pitcher is standing on or astride of the pitching rubber without the ball. As play after a foul ball, hit batsman, or time out, must not resume until the pitcher is on the pitcher’s mound, the infielder cannot use these times to obtain the ball.”
Further from rule 8.05
“It is a balk if a pitcher does not have the ball but assists in a try to deceive a runner by:
…being on or astride the rubber, [8.05 Approved Ruling-a] …feigning a pitching position or pitch [8.05i] , or …putting the rosin bag in his glove to make it appear he has the ball.”
Now in basketball I’ve never been one to agree with the intentional foul at the end of the game. Yes each player gets ‘X” fouls, but the fouls are handed out for breaking the rules. Using the basketball logic in driving ; you decide to speed, if caught you will get so many “points”, pay a fine for breaking the law, buts ok because you won’t have your license suspended until “X” is achieved.
The problem I have with the end of game fouls is you are ‘breaking the rules” to gain an advantage.
Discussion
NewNo "lying"
It’s like every other sport out there… and most board games too (chess!). Everybody participating knows that feints are part of the strategy. And if everybody knows, it’s not “lying.” It’s just part of the game.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewHe should turn around and ...
He should turn around and tell the ump … that was actually a ball.
:)
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewEthics in sports is always an
Ethics in sports is always an interesting conversation. However, I think there are better starting points than this. For instance, is it right for a Christian to deliberately break the rules in basketball by fouling to stop the clock?
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
NewIs it right to foul to stop the clock?
Yes, because you do it openly, expect to be caught, do not lie about it, and are fully prepared to take the consequences. As such, it is legitimate strategy.
That’s not the same as doping, which is done secretly with the expectation of not getting caught, and if caught, usually results in lies and protests in the face of stipulated consequences.
If an athlete took drugs openly, he would be disqualified from playing. End of game, end of season, end of career, end of story.
G. N. Barkman
NewSo the ethics are relative?
So the ethics are relative? It’s justifiable to break the rules sometimes? He’s still disqualified from playing for fouling - he can foul out for repeated offenses.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
NewFoul Out
Of course he can foul out. It’s the risk he takes for playing aggressively. Should he pull back and let the other team score without having to overcome his team’s defense? Or should he play defensively and risk committing a foul? (Doing so openly, and understanding and accepting the consequences.)
G. N. Barkman
NewFouling to stop the clock
If someone fouls intentionally to stop the clock it is, by definition, an “intentional” foul and calls for two shots and the team fouled retaining possession. Few officials have the chutzpah to call it.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
NewHurting people
Deception is part of the game, as in war. More interesting questions to me involve hurting people, such as cleats in the face when you slide, beaning a batter intentionally, or clearing the bench with the other fellows to avenge a wrong.
NewBan the Fake Punt!!!
Ban the Fake Punt!!!
http://youtu.be/3MChTB63QnE?t=59s
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
New"framing a pitch"
The problem of using this is that the umpire still has to make the final call (ball/strike), as well after the game MLB evaluates every play/pitch with the umpires and gives them a grade. their calls have gotten a lot better with the advance in technology.
Now last year Jeter was clearly not hit by the pitch, but the umpire was “conned” into it by Jeter putting on an act…that is cheating/lying/deception…after the game Jeter as much as admitted it.
Deception within the rules is one thing (hidden ball trick), but breaking the rules on purpose lends itself to situational ethics, as Charlie suggested.
NewThere's deception...
…and then there’s this.
Missionary in Brazil, author of "The Astonishing Adventures of Missionary Max" Online at: http://www.comingstobrazil.com http://cadernoteologico.wordpress.com
NewPastor Doug H wrote: The
What’s the difference between deception within the rules and breaking the rules?
I keep going back to the basketball context. Not talking about playing aggressive defense and being ruled to have broken the rules, but about making a conscious decision at the end of a game to foul the other team in order to stop the clock and get the ball back (other team has the ball and a 1 point lead with 10 seconds on the clock. No foul means they run out the clock and win; foul means they shoot free throws and may go up by 3 but have to give the ball back to you). The point is that a Christian is faced with a decision to clearly break the rules and defy the authority of the governing bodies (those who made the rules and those refereeing the game).
This is analogous to a gentleman on the radio just this morning. He argued that telling a credit card company you were no longer going to try to pay off your credit card debt was not a moral issue because the credit card company had written procedures for how to handle nonpayment before the transaction ever took place. This was simply a part of the contractual agreement. Seems like exactly the same issue.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
NewAndrew Comings wrote: ...and
Nonsense like that is why I hate international soccer. That foolishness would stop if they started handing out bans for taking a fall like that that causes a player to be ejected. The NBA is trying to cut down on flopping, but it is still so bad I consider it practically unwatchable.
Legitimate, accepted strategies such as fouling to stop the clock in basketball, are part of the game. The fouling rule in basketball is one that is meant to be broken. That’s why you get 5 or 6 per game.
No wisdom, no understanding, and no counsel will prevail against the LORD. Proverbs 21:30
NewSounds very relativistic,
Sounds very relativistic, that rules were meant to be broken, that’s why they have written procedures for when they are broken. I guess the guy I mentioned earlier was right about the credit cards. Everyone accepts that not paying the credit card back i part of the contract, so it’s not really a moral issue of making a promise then breaking it. Rules are relative, as long as everyone agrees it’s ok to break them, oh wait…
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
NewChip
Concerning the hidden ball trick:
“In professional baseball, under Rule 8.05(i), a balk occurs if the pitcher is standing on or astride of the pitching rubber without the ball. As play after a foul ball, hit batsman, or time out, must not resume until the pitcher is on the pitcher’s mound, the infielder cannot use these times to obtain the ball.”
Further from rule 8.05
“It is a balk if a pitcher does not have the ball but assists in a try to deceive a runner by:
…being on or astride the rubber, [8.05 Approved Ruling-a]
…feigning a pitching position or pitch [8.05i] , or
…putting the rosin bag in his glove to make it appear he has the ball.”
Now in basketball I’ve never been one to agree with the intentional foul at the end of the game. Yes each player gets ‘X” fouls, but the fouls are handed out for breaking the rules. Using the basketball logic in driving ; you decide to speed, if caught you will get so many “points”, pay a fine for breaking the law, buts ok because you won’t have your license suspended until “X” is achieved.
The problem I have with the end of game fouls is you are ‘breaking the rules” to gain an advantage.