So the consensus here is the wisdom method I’ll call it. Basically, to make Godly decisions you seek the word of God obey it, then seek godly mentors for their wisdom.
Well…what if you know next to nothing about the word of God because you are a novice or simply haven’t gotten into the word for whatever reason, and/or you are surrounded by people who show no interest in giving advice. I appreciate mentoring, BUT IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE few people are really interested in being the mentor. IN MY OWN LIFE I HAVE NEVER HAD A MENTOR…ever, in 20 years as a Christian. So, I am handicapped in this “biblical method” through no cause of my own. I have MANY TIMES sought wisdom from people over the last 20 years and they had little if anything to say.
So the consensus here is the wisdom method I’ll call it. Basically, to make Godly decisions you seek the word of God obey it, then seek godly mentors for their wisdom.
Well…what if you know next to nothing about the word of God because you are a novice or simply haven’t gotten into the word for whatever reason, and/or you are surrounded by people who show no interest in giving advice. I appreciate mentoring, BUT IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE few people are really interested in being the mentor. IN MY OWN LIFE I HAVE NEVER HAD A MENTOR…ever, in 20 years as a Christian. So, I am handicapped in this “biblical method” through no cause of my own. I have MANY TIMES sought wisdom from people over the last 20 years and they had little if anything to say.
This is not my position at all. But I suggest that a Christian has many positive (Christians) influences who may guide him in an ad-hoc way. I briefly worked (less than 2 years) with a Christian financial advisor for example.
The following two books are also good resources in this area:
1. Finding the will of God: a pagan notion? by Bruce Waltke
He takes the various ideas under that heading and explores where they may be found in the Scripture, and why so many clichés are misused or outright wrong. At the end of the book, he has a method of his own.
2. Step by Step: Divine guidance for ordinary Christians by James Petty
He specifically deals with the weaknesses and strengths of Friesen’s thesis and then add his own take on the issue. He also critiques the various methods out there in conservative circles.
Psalm 1:1, “Blessed is the man who walks …in the counsel of the [] godly”
Examples of asking for advice (from my own life):
I had a legal situation back in December 2011 (it’s not terribly exciting but if reader is interested it is detailed here). I looked to my brother and brother-in-law and ultimately to an attorney. I even consulted with a FB friend who is an attorney.
I had a medical issue in ‘11 and ‘12 that resulted in my missing 4 months total of work. I am blessed to have a sister-in-law who is a nurse. There is also a nurse in our church. These godly women really provided great counsel and helped me guide the process with my doctors
I am always looking for financial advice. Recently I experienced a long term capital gain on stock because the company was acquired by Berkshire Hathaway. My question was how to offset the capital gains. I asked a young man who recently graduated with a degree in accounting.
your examples…my atheist neighbor does all of that too. Is your list “being led by the spirit of God”?
I actually don’t have an “atheist neighbor” but for the sake of argument:
Because all truth is God’s truth …
Even the atheist within (and this is important) their sphere of knowledge may offer good advice - in fact some times better advice than a godly person.
Examples:
I’ve had spinal surgery twice and back surgery once. The spinal surgeries were particularly delicate. I went for the very best option for me rather than leading with “do you know the Lord?” I know a Christian Dr that I consider basically just several levels above quack. I wouldn’t have sent my dog to him!
While I consider my Pastor to be a very spiritual and wise person, I don’t look to him for advice in any number of arenas: taxes, investing, medical, et cetera.
If we are truly submitted to God’s decrees and obeying his demands, we can trust that God will providentially lead through the godly desires he places within our hearts.
Yes, this does indeed nail it. Well said.
I think we need to give latitude that not all decisions are equal. I think Jim and others were saying this at the beginning.
I had a long-term situation with wanting to be a missionary–I was submitted, obeying, had very strong desire.
every sign was go; I filled out mission agency applications a few times even. They were excited, i was excited. But, every time, there would come a moment when I knew, from the Holy Spirit, that I was not to do that. I was just an internal, definite conviction (or knowing, or whatever) from the Spirit of God that if I did this plan, it would be sin for me.
It was a struggle/cycle for a few years,
I look back now and when, how, with whom I came to Ukraine as a missionary, and it all pointed me toward me becoming acquainted with and later marrying Vitaliy.
Not every decision is like this. Probably few are. But I think, in talking about this, we should allow for a range of options of how it might be communicated.
Choosing my major in college was a vastly different experience with God, but I don’t doubt the validity of it either—it was basically my mom’s recommendation is all it was.
your examples…my atheist neighbor does all of that too. Is your list “being led by the spirit of God”?
Mark,
This is part of the problem. What do you mean by “led by the Spirit of God?” If I am not quenching or grieving, but I’m being filled, responding to conviction and allowing Him to bring the Word to bear, I am being led. There isn’t anyplace in scripture where God ever speaks to anyone with an inner feeling. He has used visions, dreams and audible messages and some incidents are not explained. But not once does someone receive an “inner feeling communication” from God.
Regarding the way of wisdom, just think of the Garden. God did not provide direct instruction regarding every individual decision; He provided a framework and commanded Adam and Eve to function semi-independently within it. From the other side, if God does have a directive will, why don’t we seek it for every decision? Why only the big ones? If God has a perfect will I might miss, it includes who I will marry and where I will work as well as what I will eat for breakfast and what color socks to wear. The problem is that scripture always, only points us to scripture itself for direction - nowhere else. 2 Tim. 3:16-17, for example, tell us scripture is all that we need to be completely equipped for everything good God expects us to do in life. The Bible does not contain every fact we use in life, but it does contain everything we need to have a framework for making every decision in life. This is the sufficiency of scripture.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Chip, the bible says that Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
On the night I became a Christian, I was convicted by the Spirit in my inner being. I felt the burden of my sin weighing heavily on me. That night, I was led by the Spirit of God to a nearby high school. And walking onto the empty football field, I cried out to God and repented of my sins. My life was changed that night. And I know that it was the Spirit of God that led me to pray that night.
Those of us who have ever spoken in public about Christ, or who have prayed for someone while led by the Spirit, know the feeling that is felt when the Spirit of God gives us valor, and empowers our words and uses us to reach others.
Also, some people have the spirit(gift) of discernment. They are able to perceive things about people that others can’t. They have a feeling that something isn’t right with the person, or that the message the person is sharing is not from God.
When men decide to enter the ministry, and to dedicate their lives to preaching the Gospel, they are doing so by the leading of the Spirit.
Chip, the bible says that Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
On the night I became a Christian, I was convicted by the Spirit in my inner being. I felt the burden of my sin weighing heavily on me. That night, I was led by the Spirit of God to a nearby high school. And walking onto the empty football field, I cried out to God and repented of my sins. My life was changed that night. And I know that it was the Spirit of God that led me to pray that night.
Those of us who have ever spoken in public about Christ, or who have prayed for someone while led by the Spirit, know the feeling that is felt when the Spirit of God gives us valor, and empowers our words and uses us to reach others.
Also, some people have the spirit(gift) of discernment. They are able to perceive things about people that others can’t. They have a feeling that something isn’t right with the person, or that the message the person is sharing is not from God.
When men decide to enter the ministry, and to dedicate their lives to preaching the Gospel, they are doing so by the leading of the Spirit.
Christian, this is exactly what I was talking about. This passage does not say how Jesus was led by the Spirit. You are projecting your assumption on the passage. But sound biblical hermeneutics teaches us to use the clear passages of scripture to explain and interpret the unclear. This passage is unclear - it doesn’t say if there was a vision, a dream, an audible voice or an inner burning. It only says Jesus was led. Every time we are told how a communication was delivered, we find a different mode of communication than the popular inner urging. I am not denying that you have felt feelings, but I am denying that you have any biblical reason to believe it is a Divine communication.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Discussion
NewStill not satisfied
So the consensus here is the wisdom method I’ll call it. Basically, to make Godly decisions you seek the word of God obey it, then seek godly mentors for their wisdom.
Well…what if you know next to nothing about the word of God because you are a novice or simply haven’t gotten into the word for whatever reason, and/or you are surrounded by people who show no interest in giving advice. I appreciate mentoring, BUT IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE few people are really interested in being the mentor. IN MY OWN LIFE I HAVE NEVER HAD A MENTOR…ever, in 20 years as a Christian. So, I am handicapped in this “biblical method” through no cause of my own. I have MANY TIMES sought wisdom from people over the last 20 years and they had little if anything to say.
NewThjis is not my position at all
This is not my position at all. But I suggest that a Christian has many positive (Christians) influences who may guide him in an ad-hoc way. I briefly worked (less than 2 years) with a Christian financial advisor for example.
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewHow about your wife?
How about your wife? ‘Cause my wife has been giving me advice for almost 39 years. :)
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
Newother books to consider
The following two books are also good resources in this area:
1. Finding the will of God: a pagan notion? by Bruce Waltke
He takes the various ideas under that heading and explores where they may be found in the Scripture, and why so many clichés are misused or outright wrong. At the end of the book, he has a method of his own.
2. Step by Step: Divine guidance for ordinary Christians by James Petty
He specifically deals with the weaknesses and strengths of Friesen’s thesis and then add his own take on the issue. He also critiques the various methods out there in conservative circles.
NewJim, about my wife
Good call. When I wrote that I was thinking of other men in the church, deacons, pastor etc…
I was imagining as well before I was married.
NewExamples of asking for advice
Psalm 1:1, “Blessed is the man who walks …in the counsel of the [] godly”
Examples of asking for advice (from my own life):
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewJim
your examples…my atheist neighbor does all of that too. Is your list “being led by the spirit of God”?
NewI happen to value the advice of "the atheist neighbor"
I actually don’t have an “atheist neighbor” but for the sake of argument:
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewJim
twisting my words? I said the ungodly neighbor can get advice from a nurse, a lawyer, and a financial advisor.
NewI did not mean to twist your words
I did not mean to twist your words
And in response: yes they can
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
Newmy 2 kopeks
I had a long-term situation with wanting to be a missionary–I was submitted, obeying, had very strong desire.
every sign was go; I filled out mission agency applications a few times even. They were excited, i was excited. But, every time, there would come a moment when I knew, from the Holy Spirit, that I was not to do that. I was just an internal, definite conviction (or knowing, or whatever) from the Spirit of God that if I did this plan, it would be sin for me.
It was a struggle/cycle for a few years,
I look back now and when, how, with whom I came to Ukraine as a missionary, and it all pointed me toward me becoming acquainted with and later marrying Vitaliy.
Not every decision is like this. Probably few are. But I think, in talking about this, we should allow for a range of options of how it might be communicated.
Choosing my major in college was a vastly different experience with God, but I don’t doubt the validity of it either—it was basically my mom’s recommendation is all it was.
anyway …
www.annesokol.com
NewDecision Making By the Book
Although I agree that Friesen is a fascinating read, I would not agree with all of it (note: it has been many years since I read it).
Another useful book is Decision Making by the Book by Haddon Robinson. He lays out a very clear method - plus it is a short read!
Ray Arnett
Ray Arnett
NewMark_Smith wrote:your
This is part of the problem. What do you mean by “led by the Spirit of God?” If I am not quenching or grieving, but I’m being filled, responding to conviction and allowing Him to bring the Word to bear, I am being led. There isn’t anyplace in scripture where God ever speaks to anyone with an inner feeling. He has used visions, dreams and audible messages and some incidents are not explained. But not once does someone receive an “inner feeling communication” from God.
Regarding the way of wisdom, just think of the Garden. God did not provide direct instruction regarding every individual decision; He provided a framework and commanded Adam and Eve to function semi-independently within it. From the other side, if God does have a directive will, why don’t we seek it for every decision? Why only the big ones? If God has a perfect will I might miss, it includes who I will marry and where I will work as well as what I will eat for breakfast and what color socks to wear. The problem is that scripture always, only points us to scripture itself for direction - nowhere else. 2 Tim. 3:16-17, for example, tell us scripture is all that we need to be completely equipped for everything good God expects us to do in life. The Bible does not contain every fact we use in life, but it does contain everything we need to have a framework for making every decision in life. This is the sufficiency of scripture.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
NewChip, the bible says that
Chip, the bible says that Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
On the night I became a Christian, I was convicted by the Spirit in my inner being. I felt the burden of my sin weighing heavily on me. That night, I was led by the Spirit of God to a nearby high school. And walking onto the empty football field, I cried out to God and repented of my sins. My life was changed that night. And I know that it was the Spirit of God that led me to pray that night.
Those of us who have ever spoken in public about Christ, or who have prayed for someone while led by the Spirit, know the feeling that is felt when the Spirit of God gives us valor, and empowers our words and uses us to reach others.
Also, some people have the spirit(gift) of discernment. They are able to perceive things about people that others can’t. They have a feeling that something isn’t right with the person, or that the message the person is sharing is not from God.
When men decide to enter the ministry, and to dedicate their lives to preaching the Gospel, they are doing so by the leading of the Spirit.
Newchristian cerna wrote:Chip,
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?