By RajeshG on
Forum category
Bible, Theology & Philosophy
Topic tags
Instrumental Music
Worship Music
occult
idolatry

From the Wikipedia article on Santería :

Santería teaches the existence of a transcendent creator divinity, Olodumare, under whom are spirits known as oricha. Typically deriving their names and attributes from traditional Yoruba deities, these oricha are equated with Roman Catholic saints and associated with various myths. Each human is deemed to have a personal link to a particular oricha who influences their personality. Olodumare is believed to be the ultimate source of aché, a supernatural force permeating the universe that can be manipulated through ritual actions. Practitioners venerate the oricha at altars, either in the home or in the ilé (house-temple), which is run by a santero (priest) or santera (priestess). Membership of the ilé requires initiation. Offerings to the oricha include fruit, liquor, flowers and sacrificed animals. A central ritual is the toque de santo, in which practitioners drum, sing, and dance to encourage an oricha to possess one of their members and thus communicate with them. Several forms of divination are used, including Ifá, to decipher messages from the oricha. Offerings are also given to the spirits of the dead, with some practitioners identifying as spirit mediums. Healing rituals and the preparation of herbal remedies and talismans also play a prominent role. [bold and underlining added to the original]

Based on this information, what should consecrated Christians believe about the instrumental music of "toque de santo" and its suitability for use in Christian worship?

Discussion

Sat, 02/21/26

Are there Christians who "drum, sing, and dance to encourage an oricha to possess one of their members and thus communicate with them"? If so, I sincerely doubt they are Christian. If not, then I struggle to see what relevance this has to Christian worship.

Sat, 02/21/26

Are there Christians who "drum, sing, and dance to encourage an oricha to possess one of their members and thus communicate with them"? If so, I sincerely doubt they are Christian.

I do not know of any such "Christians."

If not, then I struggle to see what relevance this has to Christian worship.

Hmm. Apparently, we have a very different understanding of how Christians are to know what God wants from them.

God commands all believers not to be conformed to this world. Knowing more about what the world does is important so that Christians will know properly and fully what they are not to be conformed to.

I also know from our many previous interactions that you are aware of the strong differences that you and I have in our positions concerning instrumental music. I believe that there are kinds of instrumental music that are demonic and cannot be used in any way by believers.

Based on the information provided in the Wikipedia article, I hold that the kind of instrumental music used in "toque de santo" is demonic music that is unacceptable to God. No Christians anywhere in the world can use such instrumental music acceptably to God in worship.

Sat, 02/21/26

Ok. So we are in agreement that demonic music is unacceptable for believers to use in any way. You say, "No Christians anywhere in the world can use such instrumental music acceptably to God in worship." Where do Christians use music that is akin to that used in toque de santo? Do you have any specific musical styles or examples in mind that Christians use and thereby conform to the world?

Sat, 02/21/26

Ok. So we are in agreement that demonic music is unacceptable for believers to use in any way.

This statement does not make clear whether you actually believe that there are any kinds of instrumental music that are demonic. It also does not express whether you believe that the instrumental music of "toque de santo" is demonic music.

You say, "No Christians anywhere in the world can use such instrumental music acceptably to God in worship." Where do Christians use music that is akin to that used in toque de santo? Do you have any specific musical styles or examples in mind that Christians use and thereby conform to the world?

As for these questions, I am not going to respond to them at this time because doing so will move the discussion into specifics and away from the Bible whereas the discussion that I believe is needed is a discussion of what is and is not biblical to believe about whether there are kinds of instrumental music that are demonic.

In addition, I have very plainly and repeatedly made known in previous threads my views about what kind of instrumental music I believe is demonic that many Christians use in their worship. I especially do not want this thread to be a rehash of those things that have already been extensively and very contentiously disputed in previous threads.

Sat, 02/21/26

God commands all believers not to be conformed to this world. Knowing more about what the world does is important so that Christians will know properly and fully what they are not to be conformed to.

In an effort to know more about what the world does, I looked up the Wikipedia article about the bata drum, which is the drum used in Santeria. It said,

The Lukumí (or commonly called santería) religion and batá drums are closely associated. The drums are played simultaneously (often with a rattle or "atchere") to create polyrhythmic compositions, or "toques", during santería ceremonies. A ceremony with batá drums is generally known as a "toque," "tambor de santo," or "bembé," but ceremonies can also be accompanied by shaken gourd-rattle "chékere" (in English "shekere") ensembles (usually with tumbadora, also called conga drums).

There are estimated to be at least 140 different toques for the spirits (saints, or santos) and their different manifestations.

So do we need to know all 140 different toques in order to make sure we are not conformed to the world? Or do we just need to make sure we do not use a bata drum so as to not replicate any particular sound that comes from that instrument?

Since you called this music "demonic music," I'm curious what you think makes it demonic. Do you think demons created all 140 of those toques, or did humans create them? If humans created them, then I don't think one could say they are demonic in origin. Is the music demonic because it's purpose is to facilitate possession? That purpose would be true for Santeria, but that purpose wouldn't be present in any rhythms used in contemporary Christian music.

Sat, 02/21/26

In addition, I have very plainly and repeatedly made known in previous threads my views about what kind of instrumental music I believe is demonic that many Christians use in their worship.

I have followed most, if not all of those discussions. I don't want to derail this thread, but it would be extremely helpful if you could point out exactly where you explain what kind of instrumental music Christians use in worship that is actually demonic. As I recall, several of us have asked for this information over and over only to be told that you were not ready yet to draw those conclusions or to state specifically which songs or styles of Christian music are really demonic.

Sun, 02/22/26

In an effort to know more about what the world does, I looked up the Wikipedia article about the bata drum, which is the drum used in Santeria. It said, . . .

So do we need to know all 140 different toques in order to make sure we are not conformed to the world? Or do we just need to make sure we do not use a bata drum so as to not replicate any particular sound that comes from that instrument?

Since you called this music "demonic music," I'm curious what you think makes it demonic. Do you think demons created all 140 of those toques, or did humans create them? If humans created them, then I don't think one could say they are demonic in origin. Is the music demonic because it's purpose is to facilitate possession? That purpose would be true for Santeria, but that purpose wouldn't be present in any rhythms used in contemporary Christian music.

What I meant by know more about what the world does is not what you are talking about with these remarks and questions.

I have explained at length in the past from Scripture that the wisdom of God concerning things that are demonic is not to give definitions, details, specific examples, etc. and explain which things are demonic and why, etc. I have done so by presenting an article that I have written that is a detailed treatment of Revelation 2 and what the glorified Christ does in dealing with demonic things in the church at Thyatira.

Trying to answer your questions would not be in keeping with the wisdom of God.

Based on information provided from a secular source, "toque de santo" is a demonic activity in which instrumental music is an essential component. Do you believe that "toque de santo" is a demonic musical activity?

Sun, 02/22/26

What about those flowers?

Do you deny that demonic possession happens in our day?

If not, I have to wonder how this comment is conducive to a God-honoring discussion of things pertaining to the horrific evil of humans being possessed by demons and to the terrible plight of those who are so afflicted.

Mon, 02/23/26

In his book Satan Is No Myth (1975), J. Oswald Sanders writes,

The New Bible Dictionary affirms that most psychologists dismiss the idea of demon possession. They maintain the equivalents of demon possession today as "a particular extensive complex of compulsive phenomena." p. 68

I wonder if what Sanders relates from the NBD about the views of most psychologists more than 50 years ago is now true of most Christians in our day. If so, what a testimony that would be to the tragic degree that conformity to the world has become commonplace among God's people.

Thu, 02/26/26

1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Through Paul, the Spirit teaches believers that they are to be temperate in all things. They must keep under their bodies and bring them into subjection.

The instrumental music, singing, and dancing of "toque de santo" is intentionally designed to bring about demonic possession--a state that features a complete loss of temperance (self-control) through a willful yielding up of oneself to an evil spirit.

God has never approved of anyone's giving himself up to any kind of instrumental music such that the person "loses himself" to the music and lets "the music take control" of him. All such instrumental music is categorically unacceptable to God for any use in worship.

Mon, 03/02/26

Dan Miller: What about those flowers?

RajeshG: Do you deny that demonic possession happens in our day?

No, I do not. My question still stands.

Tue, 03/03/26

Acts 14:13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. 14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

From BibleWorks 10 on Acts 14:13:


στέμματα noun accusative neuter plural from στέμμα
__________________________________
Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon

[Fri] στέμμα, ατος, τό wreath or garland (of flowers or wool interwoven with flowers and leaves) put on an animal just before it is killed as a sacrifice (AC 14.13)
στέμματα N-AN-P στέμμα
__________________________________
Gingrich, Greek NT Lexicon (GIN)

[GING] στέμμα
στέμμα, ατος, τό wreath or garland Ac 14:13.* [pg 185]
__________________________________
Danker, Greek NT Lexicon (DAN)

[DANK] στέμμα
στέμμα,ατος,τό [στέφω ‘encircle, wreath’, cp. στέφανος] ‘festive intertwined decoration’, wreath/garland, for a sacrificial victim Ac 14:13.

The NET Bible notes say,

sn Garlands were commonly wreaths of wool with leaves and flowers woven in, worn on a person's head or woven around a staff. They were an important part of many rituals used to worship pagan gods. Although it was an erroneous reaction, the priest's reaction shows how all acknowledged their power and access to God.

It's unclear to me whether the idolatrous garlands in Acts 14:13 were for the sacrificial animals or were going to be put on Barnabas and Paul. Regardless, the passage implies apostolic rejection of them.

In addition, as far as I can tell, the Bible never relates any instances of divine acceptance of any use of flowers in worship that was acceptable to God.

Discussing the use of flowers by wicked people in activities intended to bring about demonic possession is not of the same biblical importance as discussing their use of musical instruments, singing, and dancing in those demonic activities.

Fri, 03/06/26

From the Wikipedia article on Candomblé:

Possession

Music and dance are fundamental elements of Candomblé.[290] The drumming will often take place all night.[291] In the Nagô tradition, three main types of drum are employed, the largest being the rum, the middle-sized being the rumpi, and the smallest being the lé.[292] These drums are understood as living and need to be "fed".[293] The head drummer is the alabê.[294] Many terreiros maintain that women should not be involved in this ritual drumming, although others reject this tradition.[295] In some rituals, practitioners will drink a concoction containing jurema, a mildly hallucinogenic plant, sometimes mixed with the blood of sacrificed animals.[296]

Although it is usually a dancer who becomes possessed, sometimes spectators will too.[297] A possessed person is called a cavalo (horse);[298] being possessed by the orixá is deemed a privilege.[265] The state of vertigo signalling the onset of trance is known as barravento.[138] As the trance begins, practitioners often experience a body spasm termed the arrepio ("shiver").[51] Practitioners believe that when an individual is possessed by a spirit, they have no control over the latter's actions.[299] A common way of referring to the possession is receber ("to receive").[300] . . .

Practitioners may fully prostrate themselves before the possessed;[303] this is termed a dobalé.[8] After an individual becomes possessed, they may be led into an anteroom to be dressed in clothes associated with the possessing orixá; this usually includes brightly colored dresses, regardless of the gender of those involved.[304] Those possessed by Ogun are for instance often given a metal helmet and axe, while those possessed by Oxum wear a crowd and carry a sword and the abebé fan.[305]

The style of speech adopted by the possessed will be influenced by the type of spirit believed to be possessing them.[306] Those possessed by an orixá may rarely if ever speak,[307] refusing to eat, drink, or smoke to emphasise their aristocratic disposition.[308] When they dance, it will often be stylized and controlled.[88] When they do speak, the person possessed by an orixá may deliver predictions and prophecies.[309] Those deemed to be possessed by caboclos will often smoke cigars,[310] while those possessed by the erês child spirits may roll around the floor and squabble.[311] Once the possessing spirit departs, it is expected that the possessed person will have no memory of it.[312]

It is noteworthy that this information relates that some practitioners do the following:


In some rituals, practitioners will drink a concoction containing jurema, a mildly hallucinogenic plant, sometimes mixed with the blood of sacrificed animals.[296]

Apparently, some humans seek possession through ritual drumming, dancing, use of a hallucinogenic substance, and the drinking of the blood of an animal that was sacrificed.

Applying what we know is true with certainty about "fellowship with demons" from 1 Cor. 8-10, are there any Christians who would still deny that sinful humans who engage in such practices as those related in this article about these demonic musical practices can and do become possessed by demons?

Fri, 03/20/26

In my latest blogpost, I present more evidence that pertains directly to the worship music debates:

The Bible plainly teaches us that there is wisdom that is not from God that is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom: “This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish (James 3:15).”

Is there any such wisdom about musical instruments and instrumental music?

To rightly understand the answer to this key question, consider the following excerpt from a book relating the experience of missionaries to cannibals in Irian Jaya:

"While the men were preoccupied with the butchering, the women . . . took down drums . . . and began to dance back and forth . . . Sustaining a high-pitched rhythmic chant, they pounded in steady unison on lizard-skin drumheads glued on with human blood. Their heavy grass skirts flounced in time to the brooding thunder of the drums."

—Peace Child by Don Richardson, page 34

The evil that this information conveys to us shockingly makes known to us that certain evil humans have made drums that have drumheads “glued on with human blood” and that some of their people employed these drums while preparations were being made for them to engage in cannibalism. Is it not plain that such musical instruments are intrinsically evil products of earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about musical instruments?

Moreover, what are we to hold about the musical activity described in this account that these cannibals engaged in? Surely, any honest believer can understand unmistakably that such musical activity is not the playing of instrumental music with the wisdom of God that is from above.

Yes, there is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about musical instruments and instrumental music.

Sat, 03/21/26

Thank you for sharing this vital information. Clearly we must inspect our drum heads to find out what is the composition of the glue that holds them on. This will be done post haste.

Sat, 03/21/26

Thank you for sharing this vital information. Clearly we must inspect our drum heads to find out what is the composition of the glue that holds them on. This will be done post haste.

You are welcome. It's rewarding to know that there is at least one minister of the gospel who takes things seriously and does not trifle with weighty matters by making frivolous remarks, just as Christ has charged him not to do in shepherding the flock of God.

Tue, 03/24/26

800-Year-Old Human Bones Turned Into Musical Instruments Found Along South Texas Coast—Aztec Ritual Mystery Unveiled

From this article from oxfordarchaeologicalsociety.com that relates the findings from a "Discovery Date: Mid-2025 along South Texas coast":

  • Bone flutes were believed to summon deities or warn enemies.
  • Skull drums were used to keep rhythm during ritual sacrifices.
  • Femur whistles emitted ghostly tones symbolizing the cries of the underworld.

The construction of these instruments demonstrates impressive craftsmanship. Some bone flutes include precise air ducts, indicating knowledge of aerodynamics. The femur whistles have internal chambers carved to manipulate airflow and pitch—an early form of acoustic engineering.

Acoustic tests conducted by ethnomusicologists revealed that:

  • The flutes could produce 5–7 distinct notes.
  • The skull drums had low-frequency vibrations that induced trance-like states.
  • Some whistles mimic animal sounds—possibly jaguars, owls, or eagles, sacred animals in Aztec mythology.

According to this source, the Aztecs used skull drums "to keep rhythm during ritual sacrifices," and "the skull drums had low-frequency vibrations that induced trance-like states."

Based on this source that I only recently discovered, wicked humans in the Americas who have defiled human skulls to make drums out of them have understood things about particular frequencies that they somehow discovered were effective in bringing about altered states of consciousness.

Can there be any legitimate denial that such use of vile musical instruments to produce such vile instrumental music has never been the wisdom of God? Rather, all of it, including the distinctive rhythms of these Aztec kinds of instrumental music, were all the products of earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.