I understand the logic. I have said similar things myself at times. Nobody wants to invite trouble into their church.
Still, I can’t seem to find the Biblical warrant for this. Unless we believe the person is not converted, or is teaching heresy, what right do we have to exclude them from church fellowship? If Christ has received them, what right do I have to reject them?
Granted, if they insist upon riding a hobby horse and are causing divisions, we have the responsibility to instruct, warn, and if that fails, exclude. But do we have a Biblical right to exclude them preemptively because we think they may cause division? If they desire to unite with us, have a credible profession of faith in Christ, and agree that they will not undermine our Confession of Faith, do we have the right to turn them away?
Observation. Many churches have “issues” too. Where secondary or tertiary issues have been promoted to primary issues. Sometimes these issues are not mentioned in the doctrinal statement but have become hobby-horse kind of issues.
The Biblical justification is Ac 20.28-31. We are called to protect the flock. When an “issues” oriented person starts attending and exhibits tendencies of being obsessed with agitating about their issue, I make it crystal clear that we aren’t going that direction. If they persist, I will make the suggestion that they perhaps should move on. If that doesn’t stop them, I will bring up the issue publicly and teach our folks what the Bible says about it and why we aren’t going to make an issue of it … and how to deal with those who do.
As the article says, the issue isn’t the point, it is the spirit that accompanies it. The pastor has a duty to guard the flock on these matters before someone gets entrenched in the church and causes untold havoc.
I see nothing wrong with people having conversations about theological issues, even heated ones. As long as it’s not interrupting a service or creating division in the church, and done respectfully. Healthy dialogue helps people to to learn more about the Bible as they seek to support their positions.
That’s what we are doing on this website. Someone brings up a topic or news article, and people comment on it.
I think as long as someone isn’t posting something that is heretical, or that contradicts the creeds of the church, it shouldn’t bother anyone.
I think sometimes church leaders underestimate the intelligence of its members. Perhaps they are afraid of people talking about certain topics because they are too theological, and they might get confused, or(God forbid) might even have a different opinion/view on that subject.
The anti-Obama issue or anti-Dems (I’m no fan of either but if Obama were never mentioned in a SS class I would be pleased)
The hyper-prophecy guys. I’m pre-mill, pre-trib but get sick of the guys who would like to bend my ear about how this or that current event foreshadows the rapture.
The ramp up to an election and how this election is so important and the US will not survive if ___________ is elected or ________ is not elected. I feel I am in-tune with politics more than most and I don’t really care to hear about it in a church setting.
The “US is going to ‘hell in a handbasket’ ” rant ;… because of (abortion / pornography / who’s in office / the latest SCOTUS decision, et cetera).
The “how persecuted” we are because of ________________. Seriously get on a plane to Riyadh Saudi Arabia and stand on a street corner preaching the Bible. If you come back in one piece you will have a deeper appreciation for the US.
That isn’t what I understood Jim to say. I think he said he doesn’t want to hear these things discussed in Sunday School. I take that to mean that he would like his Sunday School class to focus on teaching God’s Word, not human opinion. I couldn’t agree more.
The amount of anti-government, anti-Obama, anti-democrat, anti-__________, that occurs in Baptist churches on a Sunday morning quenches the Holy Spirit. Wonder why the Spirit isn’t moving and hasn’t moved in years? It has nothing to do with keeping out focus on Jesus Christ. Fear is a sin.
Our church became quite taken with Organic everything due to a few new folks who claimed it would eliminate the need for medicines, and keep you from all sorts of bad things. There was some serious Scripture-twisting involved, and it became a problem. It seemed all conversations were about foods, preservatives, and other material things. It was separating people. The key player was a “certified biblical nutitritionist.” A nice guy, but he got a lot of people on board. I’m all for healthy eating, but this became an unhealthy focus. Normal folks felt left out.
But patient instruction has paid off (and my eating lots of bacon in front of people), and we’ve seen some humility and growth in those involved. I would be sorry to have sent them packing before making the effort to disciple them, and thus losing their other contributions to the church body. Just sayin’…
The old KJ word is “gainsayers.” They are the divisive fighters who cause problems in a church. Paul’s directions to Titus are pretty clear: get things in order and deal with the troublemakers.
In this part of the world just about everyone likes the Colts except for a few holdouts who still like the Bears. The “heated issue” is IU/Purdue, especially in basketball (to whom did Bobby Knight direct his chair? A Purdue player shooting a technical foul called against him). The Oaken Bucket Game and the week of an IU/Purdue basketball game usually sees some stress.
More to the point here is last week’s article about “part-timers.”
Where does the Bible ever encourage pastors to run people off? Maybe Dan and Don can point out that one verse. Protecting the flock? Thanks tough guys, but pastors are supposed to teach the truth and disciple the immature (which is what these issue Christians really are). How ironic that a secondary separation guy high up in the FBF has a problem with issue Christians.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
True. Some people shy away from churches for that same reason. They think that in order to be accepted by the members, they will have to stop being themselves and go along with everything without ever questioning what they are taught.
Discussion
NewLogical, but Biblical?
I understand the logic. I have said similar things myself at times. Nobody wants to invite trouble into their church.
Still, I can’t seem to find the Biblical warrant for this. Unless we believe the person is not converted, or is teaching heresy, what right do we have to exclude them from church fellowship? If Christ has received them, what right do I have to reject them?
Granted, if they insist upon riding a hobby horse and are causing divisions, we have the responsibility to instruct, warn, and if that fails, exclude. But do we have a Biblical right to exclude them preemptively because we think they may cause division? If they desire to unite with us, have a credible profession of faith in Christ, and agree that they will not undermine our Confession of Faith, do we have the right to turn them away?
G. N. Barkman
NewSounds like
he has an issue with issue Christians…so does he disqualify himself from attending the church he pastors?
NewObservation
Observation. Many churches have “issues” too. Where secondary or tertiary issues have been promoted to primary issues. Sometimes these issues are not mentioned in the doctrinal statement but have become hobby-horse kind of issues.
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewI agree with Dan on this one
The Biblical justification is Ac 20.28-31. We are called to protect the flock. When an “issues” oriented person starts attending and exhibits tendencies of being obsessed with agitating about their issue, I make it crystal clear that we aren’t going that direction. If they persist, I will make the suggestion that they perhaps should move on. If that doesn’t stop them, I will bring up the issue publicly and teach our folks what the Bible says about it and why we aren’t going to make an issue of it … and how to deal with those who do.
As the article says, the issue isn’t the point, it is the spirit that accompanies it. The pastor has a duty to guard the flock on these matters before someone gets entrenched in the church and causes untold havoc.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
NewI see nothing wrong with
I see nothing wrong with people having conversations about theological issues, even heated ones. As long as it’s not interrupting a service or creating division in the church, and done respectfully. Healthy dialogue helps people to to learn more about the Bible as they seek to support their positions.
That’s what we are doing on this website. Someone brings up a topic or news article, and people comment on it.
I think as long as someone isn’t posting something that is heretical, or that contradicts the creeds of the church, it shouldn’t bother anyone.
I think sometimes church leaders underestimate the intelligence of its members. Perhaps they are afraid of people talking about certain topics because they are too theological, and they might get confused, or(God forbid) might even have a different opinion/view on that subject.
NewThe issues that bug me personally
The issues that bug me personally:
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
Newsnickers
Someone quick, get Jim a Snickers - he gets a little angry when he’s hungry!
CanJAmerican - my blog
CanJAmerican - my twitter
whitejumaycan - my youtube
NewJim doesn't want to talk
Jim doesn’t want to talk about anything that’s happening currently in the world then.
NewJim doesn't want to talk about anything
That isn’t what I understood Jim to say. I think he said he doesn’t want to hear these things discussed in Sunday School. I take that to mean that he would like his Sunday School class to focus on teaching God’s Word, not human opinion. I couldn’t agree more.
G. N. Barkman
NewI actually do
:)
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewThe amount of
The amount of anti-government, anti-Obama, anti-democrat, anti-__________, that occurs in Baptist churches on a Sunday morning quenches the Holy Spirit. Wonder why the Spirit isn’t moving and hasn’t moved in years? It has nothing to do with keeping out focus on Jesus Christ. Fear is a sin.
NewSometimes it's worth the effort
Our church became quite taken with Organic everything due to a few new folks who claimed it would eliminate the need for medicines, and keep you from all sorts of bad things. There was some serious Scripture-twisting involved, and it became a problem. It seemed all conversations were about foods, preservatives, and other material things. It was separating people. The key player was a “certified biblical nutitritionist.” A nice guy, but he got a lot of people on board. I’m all for healthy eating, but this became an unhealthy focus. Normal folks felt left out.
But patient instruction has paid off (and my eating lots of bacon in front of people), and we’ve seen some humility and growth in those involved. I would be sorry to have sent them packing before making the effort to disciple them, and thus losing their other contributions to the church body. Just sayin’…
NewGainsayers
The old KJ word is “gainsayers.” They are the divisive fighters who cause problems in a church. Paul’s directions to Titus are pretty clear: get things in order and deal with the troublemakers.
In this part of the world just about everyone likes the Colts except for a few holdouts who still like the Bears. The “heated issue” is IU/Purdue, especially in basketball (to whom did Bobby Knight direct his chair? A Purdue player shooting a technical foul called against him). The Oaken Bucket Game and the week of an IU/Purdue basketball game usually sees some stress.
More to the point here is last week’s article about “part-timers.”
NewWhere does the Bible ever
Where does the Bible ever encourage pastors to run people off? Maybe Dan and Don can point out that one verse. Protecting the flock? Thanks tough guys, but pastors are supposed to teach the truth and disciple the immature (which is what these issue Christians really are). How ironic that a secondary separation guy high up in the FBF has a problem with issue Christians.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
NewTrue. Some people shy away
True. Some people shy away from churches for that same reason. They think that in order to be accepted by the members, they will have to stop being themselves and go along with everything without ever questioning what they are taught.