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Bible, Theology & Philosophy
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Mark Driscoll
Pornography

There is “a much healthier dynamic for both husbands and wives. The crushing expectations that accompany an addiction to pornography need to be dealt with separately from the marriage bed…” Practical Theology for Women

Discussion

Tue, 07/29/14

When I think about the ladies ‘Bible studies’ I attended, even before I was married, that were all about how to seduce one’s husband with porn star behavior, I cringe. And I always wondered how wives with young children were supposed to meet their husbands at the door dressed in Saran Wrap. One lesson I remember was title “Dress for Sexcess” and was a rather long rant about flannel nightgowns as signals to one’s husband that you weren’t in the mood. How about the flannel nightgown as a signal that the furnace needs to be turned up higher than 64°? ;)

Scenescape Media

Tue, 07/29/14

If indeed many men are either unaware or unwilling to act on the fact that treating one’s wife as a prostitute will have some negative consequences, that says all kinds of things on how powerful pornography can be and how deceived we are as a society. Agreed 100% that if one tries to resolve a pornography sin habit by treating one’s wife as one of hundreds of women he’s viewed in the altogether or in the act (whatever those might be), he is bound for failure. He needs to repent, not transfer his sin to another.

(and yes, since a “pornographic actress” has sex for money, I use the term prostitute for this “profession” in its strict definition)

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Tue, 07/29/14

and I asked myself the same thing I ask myself whenever Mark Driscoll comes up. That is, if what the quoted people says is true, how did Mark Driscoll become a “celebrity” pastor? This is just weird. But then I read Susan saying that a women’s Bible study was about “dressing for sexcess”. Wow. Apparently I am out of touch.

Tue, 07/29/14

the most important thing for a married couple is communication, especially when it comes to sexual intimacy. For most people it takes time to develop intimacy, despite what TV and movies of all types suggest. I know it is a cliche to say that communication is the key, but it really is. If you can talk about what you like/don’t like, how you feel (uncomfortable, weird, good, etc) then you can grow together as a couple in trust. That will help in the entire marriage.

As for me, I want my wife to act like herself, not a porn star! And she can skip the Saran Wrap…

Tue, 07/29/14

One one side you have Driscoll and Saran Wrap and on the other you have the woman I heard who called all lingerie sinful. Some of this comes from the need some spiritual leaders have to foist on others their opinions on things that are none of their business. I’ve grown weary of Bible teachers advising people on diet, finances, marital intimacy, fashion, and leisure activities.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Tue, 07/29/14

[Mark_Smith]

and I asked myself the same thing I ask myself whenever Mark Driscoll comes up. That is, if what the quoted people says is true, how did Mark Driscoll become a “celebrity” pastor? This is just weird. But then I read Susan saying that a women’s Bible study was about “dressing for sexcess”. Wow. Apparently I am out of touch.

Nothing wrong with being out of touch in certain ways. :^)

And how do many become celebrity pastors—well, I guess the same way as did Joel Osteen, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, T.D. Jakes, and a host of other pastors with whom, shall we say, those on this forum have some significant differences. A bit of itching ears (2 Tim. 4:3), a touch of showmanship, a fine looking mug on the TV screen, and you’re off to the races. Just maybe not on the narrow path.

Back to the topic, it strikes me that “dressing for s excess” would seem, per the comments on “how would a young mother do this?”, be a great way to put the marriage bed into a deep freeze by humiliating the wife. Those who would counsel a wife to emulate a whore in loving her husband need to be reminded that the kind of physique they’re thinking of only happens with drugs, plastic surgery, and a lot of work, and that the acts they’re thinking of often occur because the woman has been abused (rape, child sex abuse, etc..) or is on drugs.

Put bluntly, ‘taint a real woman there, boys, and no matter how much you think you want that, you really, really, really don’t.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Tue, 07/29/14

What I think is interesting and possibly even amusing is that I’ve heard the same kind of teaching for years in IFB circles, and yet those same circles would call Driscoll a heretic. If he’s a heretic, how do they manage to be playing the same one-note tuba?

I’ve grown weary of Bible teachers advising people on diet, finances, marital intimacy, fashion, and leisure activities.

Ditto, ditto, and glory hallelujah. There’s nothing wrong with teaching Biblical principles of moderation, modesty, healthy relationships, responsibility and priorities, and letting folks work out the details for themselves.

Scenescape Media

Wed, 07/30/14

From the article:

However, Mark’s distortion and perversion of the gospel, sex, and gender roles were almost a perfect support for enabling and justifying aspects of my selfishness while doing great damage to my marriage:

I was still embroiled in my sin during the first years of our marriage which deeply injured my wife and almost ended our marriage.
The expectation that my wife believed and I readily agreed to was that she was available to me for whatever, no matter what I did, whenever, and if she wasn’t I would probably end up doing worse.
Sex was often empty and emotionally painful. So Mark’s recommendation and my sinful silent agreement with the concept of your wife being your personal porn star was apt. Dead, meaningless sex
I did not take into account my wife’s opinions. I did not ask and she did not speak because she thought she should be silent and only encouraging like Mark taught.

There is a colon before this list of four things, so I guess the writer thinks these are supported by Mark’s teaching?

I’m going to respond to these 4 things by number.

1. There is no doubt that Mark would call this sin, a trap, and agree that this would injure your wife and possibly end your marriage.

Mark would use language like this for your sin:

“When we disobey, we then continue to worship but do so as idolaters treating people and things as gods. His sin was not just sleeping with a different woman, but sleeping with another woman as a worship act to another god. Sex was his god, a bed was his altar, their bodies were their living sacrifices, and he was a pagan priest committing idolatry.”

Driscoll, Mark (2012-01-03). Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship, and Life Together (p. 111). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

2. This is NOT Mark’s teaching.

Could a man (or woman) use Paul’s teaching on “conjugal rights” as an excuse to have unrealistic expectations from his wife - yes, but Paul still taught that married people should not withhold sex, except for a short time by mutual consent.

3. Again, not Mark’s teaching.

Is there anything similar to this in Real Marriage that an idiot could have construed this way?

It doesn’t make sense to use the term “porn” for marital sex. Using it this way almost makes it sound like a wife seeking to excite her husband visually is doing wrong. I don’t think anyone wants to say that.

4. Again, not Mark’s teaching.

Ch. 4 of Real Marriage, for instance, encourages women to be “counselor to” their husbands and to “disagree respectfully” with them. Ch. 10 it says that anything that brings shame, harm, or (not a clear conscience) to either partner should not be done.

“The biblical pattern for Christian marriage is free and frequent sex. The exception is when the couple agree that for valid reasons and a needed season they will abstain from free and frequent sexual activity to prayerfully devote themselves to a critical matter in the marriage. Examples include such things as spouses suffering from injuries or illnesses to such a degree that they cannot be intimate, or the tragic event of an adultery from which the couple is seeking to reconcile but are emotionally raw.”

Driscoll, Mark (2012-01-03). Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship, and Life Together (p. 161). Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

Wed, 07/30/14

I didn’t read this article as a review of the book Real Marriage, but rather the popularity of the book gave Driscoll a platform to teach about marriage. And your quote, Dan, is from a comment made by a man who was a porn addict reacting to Driscoll’s teaching, not to the book specifically. “Here are testimonies from a few people particularly affected negatively by the crushing expectations presented by Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill’s teaching on sex. “

“There is obviously a mix of my family history, spiritual oppression, some deep emotional wounds, and my own self-enslavement to sin.” The fact is, no matter how carefully we think we are phrasing our teachings, the folks who are listening bring their state of mind and personal baggage into their perception of what is being said. It just proves IMO that this subject is often not handled properly.

Scenescape Media

Wed, 07/30/14

[Susan R]…

“There is obviously a mix of my family history, spiritual oppression, some deep emotional wounds, and my own self-enslavement to sin.” The fact is, no matter how carefully we think we are phrasing our teachings, the folks who are listening bring their state of mind and personal baggage into their perception of what is being said. It just proves IMO that this subject is often not handled properly.

I agree with you, Susan. It seemed clear to me that this guy was twisting Mark’s teaching to his own desires.

But Wendy seems to blame Mark [and his “harmful teaching”] for this guy’s improper handling. It also seems like we in this thread have been pretty happy to bash Mark on this guy’s word.

Wed, 07/30/14

I’m personally not blaming Driscoll for this kind of teaching, because I’ve experienced it all throughout my life in IFB circles - I’m talking as far back as 1980. Driscoll didn’t invent the “wife as porn star” view of marital relations, but he seems to have become the new face of the topic through his own more visible and (IMO) outrageous actions.


Scenescape Media

Wed, 07/30/14

Two words: Saran Wrap. Marabel Morgan’s “The Total Woman” was published in 1973. Some things in the landfill never decompose.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan