Faith Baptist Bible College has removed Saylorville [formerly Baptist] Church from its approved churches list

[JVDM]

You really can’t win this argument, Dave.

I don’t have a need to win anything. I don’t have anything to do with Faith, and given what they are standing on here, I wouldn’t want to. I’m simply expressing my view of their standing on a name vs. a real separation issue. I think when a stand is taken on something this trivial, everyone loses, especially those who have to choose between their church and their jobs.

Feel free to give kudos to the board and extend them your charity. I, for one, don’t need it. If this is representative of what people think is a good application of separation in fundamentalism, then the movement is already dead.

If this is representative of what people think is a good application of separation in fundamentalism, then the movement is already dead.

Dave,

Calling this “separation in Fundamentalism” is kind of like saying that my being excluded from the BJU alumni association is. Yes, they are both a kind of a separation, but not like separating from apostasy.

The Faith situation is a little more serious, but in a way, it’s not much different than Faith not serving the interests of gospel-preaching Presbyterians, or continuationists, or pre-wrath rapture advocates. They are maintaining distinctives. They aren’t the first Christians to do so, and won’t be the last. As much as Saylorville claims they are still Baptists (and I would say that they are), they aren’t the kind of Baptists that Faith will identify with, just like Saylorville, by dropping the name, doesn’t especially want to identify with the kind of Baptists Faith are.

Greg,

I think the whole point is about the reasoning Faith has used in writing to explain their actions. Would this action have taken place if Saylorville hadn’t dropped “Baptist” from the name?

If yes - then this whole kerfluffle is a cop-out to try and avoid the real issues and pursuant controversy and all the ciriticism here is deserved.

If no - then all the criticism here is deserved because the label doesn’t mean a thing anymore, the beliefs and practices are what’s important.

I don’t have a problem with Faith saying here we stand, and your movement at Saylorville has moved us appart - if the changes cited are legitimate, biblical issues. Those issues may exist. But Faith apparently chose not to deal with those issues. Consequently, this will all blow up again in a few years when another neighboring church changes philosophy but doesn’t change the name.

Ultimately, this is the same path fundamentalists have followed when remaining aligned with KJVO, no pants on women, short hair on men, label Calvinism heresy churches because they still call themselves fundamentalists while denouncing more doctrinally sound ministries (like MacArthur’s, Dever’s or Mohler’s) because they refuse to be called fundamentalists. If you are going to militantly stand for what’s right, then stand all the way for what’s right - not just for what’s convenient to hopefully get where you think right is.

I don’t have a problem with Faith saying here we stand, and your movement at Saylorville has moved us appart - if the changes cited are legitimate, biblical issues. Those issues may exist. But Faith apparently chose not to deal with those issues. Consequently, this will all blow up again in a few years when another neighboring church changes philosophy but doesn’t change the name.

Chip,

Though they have dealt with an issue to some degree, I expect you are right in your last sentence. Though I haven’t lived in the area for some time, there are other IARBC churches in the area who have philosophies of ministry that would be, um, different from Faith’s stated positions (which was true when I was there, I know).

So who knows? Saylorville, as I understand it, was the most aggressive in pursuing changes in ministry approach. It will be interesting to see what transpires in the future. Faith has made some practical changes of late. It will be interesting, since so much is being left unsaid regarding philosophical differences (which, I suspect, is because there are differences even amongst the board members on what acceptable latitude is in these areas), what ends up being included in principles of unwavering conviction and what ends up being considered acceptable as “…changing… standards among those in ministry.”

Consequently, this will all blow up again in a few years when another neighboring church changes philosophy but doesn’t change the name.

Or, if someone would start an unaffiliated church with Baptist in the name in the area, but have a prominent philosophical or ministry difference with Faith- say, progressive dispensational, or plural elders, or strict family-integrated…

[JVDM]

This is a worthy line of thinking, Chip. Others agree.

What Chip stated is exactly what I’ve been saying all along, although apparently not as well as Chip. You can see some of my earlier posts to confirm this.

In any case, after having my heart refreshed and convicted this morning, I have concluded that I should cease participation in this thread. You and I have stated our positions on this issue, and we are not going to convince the other. Hence, any further discussion along these lines is going to be unproductive, and, at least in my opinion, not likely to be God-honoring. From my side, I’m going to agree to disagree.

Have a great Sunday.

Side note- It appears to me from the little glimpses of audience that you see in the “Salorville Christmas” that the audience does not cover the same demographic as the “Faith Christmas”. While I am not comfortable with the Salorville video linked may I suggest that the audience at Salorville looks like a very young crowd. I would liken the Salorville Christmas video to a youth group entertainment hour. I skimmed over a good portion of it and it looks to me to be fairly typical of the E-free youth group entertainment. (this goes into a different philosophy of what we do with our youth)

Contrast the Faith Christmas concert which is a much different demographic. It has many guests from many different churches-some even from out of state. It is not a “youth group” setting by any stretch of the imagination. It is a very “elegant” setting from my own experience.

I would contend that it looks like we are not comparing apples to apples. IF the Salorville service linked was an official christmas church service-ie, invite your children, grandparents, uncles, aunts, unsaved neighbors… it would be a more similar comparison IMO. Even in the church I grew up in things were not done the same way with a crowd of young people as were done for a church service.

Even though it is not something that I would want happening in our church I believe we should fairly represent it. We can discuss if what was shown in the video is across the board representative of their services as a whole-but the context in which it was happening is important IMO to the discussion.

I have attended youth events that were more entertainment oriented that the Christmas concert. A couple of years ago, our daughters went with our church teens to FaithFest and heard Will Galkin… That was pretty intense… :)

That being said, the truth is somewhere in between. The videos are representative of extremes (and different audiences), but not too far off from what would be center for Faith or Saylorville, especially where college students would be concerned and constitute the primary audience.

Dr. H is the late Maranatha Systematic Theology professor. His take was why are these folks (students, faculty, and staff) here (in Watertown, WI). They are here to study, teach, and support MBBC. This philosophy was shared by his wife, Mrs. Jane Hollowood, MBBC’s Dean of women and lead to some low level friction with the local churches.

Why does this matter here? The same question can be asked of the FBBC faculty and students attending Saylorville Church. Why are they in Ankeny in the first place? Is it to be educated and teach at FBBC? Is it to attend and serve at Saylorville Church?

Question about the scope of the impact in term of numbers of employees and students:

• Does anyone know how many students this impacts (current FFBC students attending Saylorville Church who will need to find different church)?
• And then how many FFBC employees are impacted (currently members of Saylorville Church and will need to find another church)?

Does someone in the Ankeny area have a definitive answer?

I ask because I hypothesize that the impact is small. Perhaps just a handful of employees and several dozen students.

Jim-

“Several dozen students” in an enrollment like Faith has is not a “small impact.”

According to the Wikipedia-
Academic staff 30
Students 330

Also, would you count students who attended there only during the academic year, or only students who were year-round members?

Rob-

Not knowing MBBC as well, I would say it is a little different, still, at Faith. Pat Nemmer’s predecessor was a Faith prof. The church is full of alumni, and several staff and faculty have been a part of the congregation over the years. Now, as I understand it, some faculty have left on their own accord well before this decision was made, because of concerns with methods and so on. Some have stayed, too- Randy Smith (who was my English instructor) is a member of Saylorville- you can read some of his comments on the topic in this Facebook thread- https://www.facebook.com/faithbaptistbiblecollege/posts/295208817269033

Maranatha went through a similar situation years ago when a church in nearby Waterloo, WI removed Baptist from their name. Students and staff were not allowed to attend the church anymore. At least one staff member resigned from his position because of his role with the church. It did affect several students as well. The pastor at the time was a graduate of MBBC and the church was largely MBBC people. The pastor’s desire was to remove any negative feelings the small community had towards the church. The church went through their struggles, changed names again, and is currently going very strong. All that said, I did not blame MBBC then, and I don’t blame FBBC now. A school needs to have some control over where the students go to church. I am just thankful I went to a school where I COULD go to a local church on a Sunday morning - even more than that, I was encouraged to go to a church where I could be mentored by pastors and lay leaders that would support what I was learning in the classroom. I guess my point is, every school has to make some kind of call as to where they will allow their students and staff to attend church. What is interesting to me is that the opposition to Faith’s decision seems to be more than the opposition to BJU’s rule for years that prevented staff living on campus to even attend their church on a Sunday morning. That one I could never figure out.

That happened way after my time on campus. Keep in mind I came home to San Francisco after graduating and have no other ties back East (anyplace East of Sacramento)

[Bob Nutzhorn]

Maranatha went through a similar situation years ago when a church in nearby Waterloo, WI removed Baptist from their name. SNIP

[Jim]

Question about the scope of the impact in term of numbers of employees and students:

• Does anyone know how many students this impacts (current FFBC students attending Saylorville Church who will need to find different church)?
• And then how many FFBC employees are impacted (currently members of Saylorville Church and will need to find another church)?

Does someone in the Ankeny area have a definitive answer?

I ask because I hypothesize that the impact is small. Perhaps just a handful of employees and several dozen students.

I had contact with a Faith student whom I know well. He does not attend Saylorville. He reports:

• “I have heard around 40 students attend Saylorville. The students from the area that are members at the church will still be allowed to attend.”
• “I am not quite sure on the number of faculty/staff, but there are 2 professors that will not be returning next year. Also several from the financial aid office attend, as well as both the athletic director and assistant athletic director and the head of maintenance”
• “Within the student body, the reaction is mostly negative, even though there is a large number, including myself, that would never attend. The primary reasoning that Saylorville removed “baptist” from the name is because is at times was a hindrance to their evangelism ministry which is quite large (they have planted 3 churches in 5 years.) When Saylorville called their current pastor (I believe it was 7 years ago,) this pastor brought in a more contemporary-style atmosphere to the church. My belief is that if Faith had to remove Saylorville from the approved list, they should have done it either at this time (since the music of the church clearly violates the school’s music philosophy,) or wait until a later time when (if) Saylorville begins to deviate doctrinally.”

[Greg Linscott] I would ask, though- what other solution would you propose for them to pursue that would allow for local church autonomy yet permit Faith to preserve the course they have committed to traveling?

• I appreciate Faith.
• We financially support Faith (and I say this not to brag … for all you know perhaps I only gave them $ 5 last year! My financial support - and it is the only Bible College I support financially - is indicative of my confidence in the school!)
• I appreciate Dr Maxwell and the Faith admin team (including Don Anderson!) And I have confidence in these leaders
• I appreciate Faith’s consistent Baptist, separatist, dispensational position (although I am less-dispensational then they!)
• I appreciate their quiet approach - not out blogging and being shot at! (In contrast to another school / President not named (whom I also appreciate!)
• I appreciate their narrow focus - preparing young adults for vocational ministry
• I appreciate their fiscal conservatism and financial transparency.
• I add that I know and work with many Faith grads (Don Anderson’s son in our Y/A ministry and others at 4th Baptist). Faith produces a solid product!

In my view they:

• Had to act
• It makes particular sense with regard to employees - that seems crystal clear to me
• Sounds like their policy makes provision for local students … you come from a Bible church in the area … makes sense to stay there
• It makes sense to the students in general … but I think in this area they could have grand-fathered in current students who attend Saylorville and made the policy effective for new students only

But in conclusion: I stand behind the administration.

When Saylorville called their current pastor (I believe it was 7 years ago,) this pastor brought in a more contemporary-style atmosphere to the church.

Pat has been there longer than 7 years. He was in place (and had been for a while) in 2000-01 when I was a student. He even spoke at a Men For Christ rally when it was at Faith sometime around then… Saylorville was always, speaking charitably, on the “leading edge” of things, but the changes in methods Pat made at Saylorville were not as pronounced at first as they are now.