19 Brides and Grooms, 19 Cakes, One Ceremony

[Jay C] @ Rev. Karl and Jim - Does the church REALLY need to pay for tuxes, bands, cake, and even [possibly] honeymoons? I mean, come on. People get married all the time without those trappings…think of the GI’s who married prior to going to war at a Justice of the Peace. Were they any less married because there was no organ music or traditional bridal gown?

Does the Church really need to pay? Nope! Not at all.

But if a person in the church feels led of the Lord to honor - yea, even to encourage - their obedience and humility by offering to supply some of the stuff they would have wanted at their wedding, but now did not have the $$ for, I don’t see any harm in that.

Also, what might be “right” for their church might not be acceptable or accepted in another church. (Kind of like English translations, styles of Church music…) What was contributed by the church (in addition to the contributions of the volunteers) might have been a fraction of what that church has set aside on a weekly basis for benevolent assistance to their congregation.

As many have said, we don’t know all the tiny little details. What we do know is that men who have been called by God to minister His Word sought His will in this matter, and did what they felt God was leading them to do. Is it prohibited by Scripture? Nope. So who are we to say they were right or wrong? “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own heart….”

Since we don’t have a lot of information about this, I’m shooting from the hip on what’s available. I think the concerns about motivation are valid, but I don’t think we realize how ‘normal’ some unBiblical practices have become. Bro. Keith pointed out that common law marriage is legal in TX. I imagine some folks hadn’t given it much thought until this challenge was proposed, or they may have struggled some inwardly, but managed to quiet those tugs of conscience with the same bucket of cold water we use when we’re rebelling against our conscience or the Holy Spirit.

When someone gets saved at our church, we give them a Bible and some study materials to help them get started in the right direction. I suppose we could say that someone who was really saved should buy their own Bible and study materials. There are bookstores on every corner, and I’ve even seen Bibles at the Dollar Store. But the point isn’t the money that a Bible costs- it’s the church seeing and filling a need.

I didn’t read this method as attempting to provide financial incentive for people to do the right thing. I thought of it as a church challenging people who were living in sin and then removing ANY excuse for them to not make it right. Obviously not everyone wanted to make it right, but the ones who were sincere followed through on the counseling. It would be nice to know more about what the counseling entailed.

It also isn’t a surprise to me that 40 couples that attend such a large church are shacking up. I would have a problem with it if they were members, however, because I’d wonder about the requirements for church membership. I didn’t see anything on the website about that.

First, what is the real sin here? Is it sex outside of marriage? That is very simple to show biblically that it is wrong. Or is it living together? I don’t know of any biblical reason why this would be wrong. There are very obvious reasons why living together without keeping your hands to yourself is so extremely unlikely. But it could be done for a time, and could therefore address the issue of not moving out between the time the decision was made, through the counseling, and up to the wedding. (Admittedly improbable, but very possible)

Second, I live in Iowa where there is common law marriage. I have never met a person who has a common law marriage who acknowledges that they are married. They certainly have not moved in together hoping to wait out the seven years (I think that’s now long it is) until their relationship is officially recognized by the state. My understanding of the law is that it is to entangle losers who string women on for years and then want to leave with no obligation to the woman they have kids with and who is now unable to provide for herself and kids. That is just the observations I have made of common law marriages. It may be different in different states.

Jeremy

I emailed Ross Wyche at the Concord church. He is the Associate Pastor of Membership & Couples. I asked him-

Were these couples members of the church, or attendees?
Was assurance of a salvation experience part of the counseling process?
Why do you think 40 couples came forward, but only 19 committed to the counseling?

His answer-

…the majority of the couples are members, however there were a few from neighboring churches. We stressed the importance of having a relationship with Christ (salvation is a requirement for membership at our church). Most of the couples that didn’t move forward with the wedding are planning on taking our pre-marital class in January, some of the other couples decided they just weren’t ready.

So there- it seems that there is definite validity to the concerns that have been voiced in this thread. What follow up questions would ya’ll recommend be asked of Pastor Wyche?

[Joel Shaffer] Maybe I can give you some context to the situation, especially in regards to the finances. Right now I am discipling 3 young men in their early twenties who, just a few months ago were living with their girl friends. Over time they became convicted that they needed to either move out of their sinful situation or get married. Unfortunately, to move out of their situation costs alot more money….money they didn’t have working a low level job while trying to go to school. Neither did their girlfriends, who also had a child with each of them before God transformed these young men’s lives. They couldn’t move back home, because of the destructive home lives that each of them come from (for example, one of them has 25 brothers and sisters from his Dad who was with some 11 or 12 different women, including his mom)

None of them had any savings, so they couldn’t save enough at such a short notice for a deposit on an apartment and first month’s rent, let alone all of the other expenses that are part of living independently. In the end, our ministry (Urban Transformation Ministries) helped these young men get an apartment together from a generous landlord (and donor) that reduced the rent and deposit in order to help them afford to do the right thing. Part of the discipleship for these men includes personal goal setting and financial budgeting so that they eventually will be in a position to get married and take care of the family that they’ve already created. In each of these cases, they were not ready to marry their girlfriends. There is a ton of baggage that we will be addressing soon through Christian counseling as they get closer to marriage.

I am not convinced that the financial issue is necessarily about giving them perks so that they get married. Rather the alternative (which I explained above) really is more expensive, messy, and time-consuming and I don’t know if most churches are prepared to count the cost in coming along side the urban poor in situations such as this. I think this church understood that many of these live-in couples perceived themselves in a catch-22 position and they were willing to help them solve this dilemma.

Thanks for that, Joel. Quite a different angle on it than I was seeing.
Susan: Thanks for getting some hard facts into the discussion. Can’t personally think of anything else I’d want to know from them… unless maybe, in light of Joel’s comments above, it might be interesting to know what the financial situations in general are. But I’m assuming these weren’t high-income NY-penthouse-apartment types who could have sold a spare Mercedes to pay for the wedding.

Jbarkema,

You are right that living together is not the sin, but rather sex outside of marriage. The problem is that the sexual temptation is so strong that inevitably the couple gives in to their desires. With the three men that I disciple who were in these live-in relationships, they tried to abstain from sex in their live in situations, but after about three weeks to a month, they kept giving in to their sexual temptation. So far, all three of them are doing much better dealing with sexual temptation……..but the constant speaking the word of God in their lives on this issue (accountability) is the core of what has helped them. Removing them out of their environment, though very necessary, was only the first step of a long process……..

Cohabitation is also a sin. Rom.13.14. Also, a man is supposed to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, not leave his father and mother and attempt to set up some sort of celibate pseudo household with a gal friend. Add in all the general calls to wisdom in Proverbs and other places. Rooming with someone of the opposite sex is unwise in the extreme.