A quick search of the SBC website indicates the nearest SBC church to Northland is in Iron Mountain. That’s too far for a practical, weekly relationship with students from NIU. I wonder what they will require for church attendance among students who attend under the new regime?
Northland had regular outreach teams that travelled as far as two or three hours for extension ministries on the weekends when I was there - the churches were in places like Wausau (2h 30m one way), Marinette (1h 15m one way), and Marquette (2h 10m one way). Some of those teams left on Friday night or Saturday morning so that they could be in and at the local church on Sunday, and some of them got back to the campus as late as 11 PM on Sunday night. The school sent all of its’ students, one time a school year, to Chicago for their required trip to go serve in a prison or battered women’s shelter.
If students can go to Iron Mountain just to get their shopping done at Wal-Mart, I’m positive they can get to Iron Mountain for church. Pembine is a lot closer and more feasible logistically, sure, but Iron Mountain is not all that far away.
It is one thing to start small when your program and facilities are small and the entire program, staff, & facilities can grow together. In NIU’s case the infrastructure is there that at one time handled 600-700 students. All of those buildings need to be maintained, office support staff need to be there, etc. Right off the bat SBTS will have a fair financial responsibility on its hands. I would expect they would’ve already crunched numbers to have an idea of what it will take financially and what kind of program(s) they may offer. They may be able to use their staff at Boyce to do some of the record keeping without having permanent people in place at NIU. With today’s technology there is much they can do via the web. Not as good as a live person on site, but it may be an option.
It is my guess that Southern will use Northland similar to UCLA or SUNY - accepted students will be given a choice or informed that their schooling will take place at either the Southern or Northland campus. No need to build up a whole new base of students. Will they probably close off some of the dorm floors or something while they deal with the deferred maintenance and issues like that? Sure. But it’s not like this is a totally new campus that no one has ever heard of before that just got dropped in the middle of New Mexico.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Greg Linscott] Now wait a minute, iK. I think you’re being a bit harsh toward Harding. How exactly do you know that Mike wouldn’t demonstrate grace like Mohler would? What does that look like- grace, I mean?
Let’s see.
Now that NIU is potentially free from their antiquated standards, perhaps they can allow their students to socially drink, have modern dances, have rock concerts, and dress the way they really want (Cornerstone). That’s real progress.
I have written my defense on the alcohol and music issue on our church website. It is fbctroy.org under resources and documents. Mohler and I make very similar arguments on the alcohol issue. Musically Mohler agrees in principle with myself; however, he gives much more latitude in the field of missiology. Dr. Scott Aniol who teaches at SWTS has addressed that issue thoroughly in his PhD dissertation and answered it well. I have asked Dr. Mohler to read it; hopefully he will. I am quite familiar with Southern and Boyce. I have visited there are numerous occasions.
Let’s take the Cornerstone (and what they permit there students to do) to a new thread. Same with A,B,C fundamentalism. Unless any more discussion on this directly relates to Northland gifting of self to SBTS.
Not trying to be harsh and of course it’s a way-out-prediction:
Prediction: Northland campus in 10 years:
It will basically be a camping ministry and not a college campus (this is basically true today)
There will be a corporate retreat kind of function to get execs well away from distractions
1 story duplexes will be rented out to locals (keep in mind … there are not a lot of locals)
Dorms will be moth-balled during the non-camping season. Older, higher maintenance buildings will be torn down
There will be two camping seasons: Summer (obviously) and snow & hunting
Jim, I basically agree with you. I think the college will be done within 1-2 years. The fact of the matter, there is too much negative momentum and uncertainty right now, which can take years to make a turn-around.
As someone closely connected with many associated with Northland, I can attest to the pain they have experienced:
Unsold homes
Layoffs and lost salaries (not that they were unpaid)
Dislocation
It’s painful and we should pray for them
* Unsold homes - In that area it can easily take over a year to sell a house largely depending upon its price. There just isn’t the population or economy there to allow many people to afford big, pricey houses. For most people in a ministry like NIU, having an unsold home can be a significant financial burden.
* Faith Baptist in Pembine a several years ago built a nice gym, classroom, & fellowship hall building because of the Christian school they had with kids mostly from NIU families. They have a mortgage to pay on that.
These are some of the several contextual issues I’ve been speaking of. Some people are pumped because NIU is now not in the “A” camp, that Southern is going to rescue NIU, or even that they now won’t get kicked out for listening to Gershwin. It just isn’t that simple.
It isn’t that simple to think how cool it is that NIU has broken away from the Fundy fuddy-duddies. This is why change needs to happen in an appropriate manner. Organizations, people, and customers need time to absorb the process.
I wonder - could we all say that Northland becoming a school in the conservative wing of the Southern Baptist Convention - does the Sovereignty of God cover this sort of thing? Is Northland still part of God’s kingdom Work? (or for you who need this - part of his Future Kingdom Work…..Now?) Is Northland now no longer committed to the gospel? I wonder if God is as disappointed when a church or a para-church ministry leaves one orb of fellowship for a different wing in the Universal church? I actually don’t wonder. I’m very sure God is not as nearly upset as some of you brothers and sisters are. I would encourage you to trust in the sovereignty of God. I am most convinced these things happened ultimately because God, before the foundation of the cosmos, willed Northland to become Southern Baptist. This is part of what we call a God-centered theology. What is surprising is that some of you who are singing the blue’s loudest - I’ve actually heard teach and preach a very God-centered theology - yet I don’t hear that confidence in your words just now. You sound almost…….Arminian! That’s rather surprising knowing where some of you studied.
As always……Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
You seem to be taking an almost fatalistic view of Divine Sovereignty. God is in control, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t matters to be evaluated, or that poor or even wrong decisions weren’t made. To look at another story, God is in control at Mars Hill and over Mark Driscoll. That doesn’t mean that the best or only response is “Praise God that He’s in control and knows what He’s doing!” I mean, to use your response, there isn’t really anything we need to do about anything, since God is in control and all.
Joel, you speak as if this is merely a transition of Northland to a new phase of existence, but when I read the word “gift” of the facilities to Southern, it sounds more like Northland as such has ceased to exist and Southern (through Boyce College) is expanding north. While some staff/faculty will no doubt remain, the new entity is en entirely new entity.
I am not speaking critically here, I am not sure what options were left after all the bad decisions of the last few years. But to speak of Northland continuing as “part of God’s Kingdom” is perhaps not the right way to think of it. Northland, as I understand it, ceases to exist after the end of this school year.
[Joel Tetreau] I would encourage you to trust in the sovereignty of God. I am most convinced these things happened ultimately because God, before the foundation of the cosmos, willed Northland to become Southern Baptist. This is part of what we call a God-centered theology.
I’m with Greg, belief and comfort in God’s sovereignty does not negate man’s responsibility or signal God’s approval of what occurred. For example, In 1 Kings God declared through Ahijah that the house of Jeroboam would be completely eliminated — that was his sovereign will — but when Baasha completes that task, he is judged for having done so (1 Kings 16:7, “…because of all the evil that he did in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger with the work of his hands, in being like the house of Jeroboam, and also because he destroyed it.”) Same with Christ and the crucifixion (Mark 14:21, “for the Son of Man goes as it is written of him [God’s sovereignty] but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! [man’s culpability] “).
Discussion
NewI know Rob, I was being
I know Rob, I was being humorous back!
NewNonsense
Northland had regular outreach teams that travelled as far as two or three hours for extension ministries on the weekends when I was there - the churches were in places like Wausau (2h 30m one way), Marinette (1h 15m one way), and Marquette (2h 10m one way). Some of those teams left on Friday night or Saturday morning so that they could be in and at the local church on Sunday, and some of them got back to the campus as late as 11 PM on Sunday night. The school sent all of its’ students, one time a school year, to Chicago for their required trip to go serve in a prison or battered women’s shelter.
If students can go to Iron Mountain just to get their shopping done at Wal-Mart, I’m positive they can get to Iron Mountain for church. Pembine is a lot closer and more feasible logistically, sure, but Iron Mountain is not all that far away.
It is my guess that Southern will use Northland similar to UCLA or SUNY - accepted students will be given a choice or informed that their schooling will take place at either the Southern or Northland campus. No need to build up a whole new base of students. Will they probably close off some of the dorm floors or something while they deal with the deferred maintenance and issues like that? Sure. But it’s not like this is a totally new campus that no one has ever heard of before that just got dropped in the middle of New Mexico.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
NewGreg Linscott wrote:Now wait
Let’s see.
NewPrediction: Northland campus in 10 years
Not trying to be harsh and of course it’s a way-out-prediction:
Prediction: Northland campus in 10 years:
In 20 years … Northalnd will be to 20 & 30 year olds what Spurgeon Baptist Bible College is to 30 year olds today.
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewResources
Brother Kuyper,
I have written my defense on the alcohol and music issue on our church website. It is fbctroy.org under resources and documents. Mohler and I make very similar arguments on the alcohol issue. Musically Mohler agrees in principle with myself; however, he gives much more latitude in the field of missiology. Dr. Scott Aniol who teaches at SWTS has addressed that issue thoroughly in his PhD dissertation and answered it well. I have asked Dr. Mohler to read it; hopefully he will. I am quite familiar with Southern and Boyce. I have visited there are numerous occasions.
Pastor Mike Harding
NewJoel, does Cornerstone allow
Joel, does Cornerstone allow drinking for their faculty or grad students over 21?
Pastor Mike Harding
NewModerator Note
Let’s take the Cornerstone (and what they permit there students to do) to a new thread. Same with A,B,C fundamentalism. Unless any more discussion on this directly relates to Northland gifting of self to SBTS.
Thanks
Jim
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewFact of the Matter
Jim, I basically agree with you. I think the college will be done within 1-2 years. The fact of the matter, there is too much negative momentum and uncertainty right now, which can take years to make a turn-around.
NewDid you
understand (though you may not agree with) what I was trying to communicate?
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
NewThe pain
As someone closely connected with many associated with Northland, I can attest to the pain they have experienced:
It’s painful and we should pray for them
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewChange takes Time
* Unsold homes - In that area it can easily take over a year to sell a house largely depending upon its price. There just isn’t the population or economy there to allow many people to afford big, pricey houses. For most people in a ministry like NIU, having an unsold home can be a significant financial burden.
* Faith Baptist in Pembine a several years ago built a nice gym, classroom, & fellowship hall building because of the Christian school they had with kids mostly from NIU families. They have a mortgage to pay on that.
These are some of the several contextual issues I’ve been speaking of. Some people are pumped because NIU is now not in the “A” camp, that Southern is going to rescue NIU, or even that they now won’t get kicked out for listening to Gershwin. It just isn’t that simple.
It isn’t that simple to think how cool it is that NIU has broken away from the Fundy fuddy-duddies. This is why change needs to happen in an appropriate manner. Organizations, people, and customers need time to absorb the process.
NewResponse #6 - A view of soverignty
I wonder - could we all say that Northland becoming a school in the conservative wing of the Southern Baptist Convention - does the Sovereignty of God cover this sort of thing? Is Northland still part of God’s kingdom Work? (or for you who need this - part of his Future Kingdom Work…..Now?) Is Northland now no longer committed to the gospel? I wonder if God is as disappointed when a church or a para-church ministry leaves one orb of fellowship for a different wing in the Universal church? I actually don’t wonder. I’m very sure God is not as nearly upset as some of you brothers and sisters are. I would encourage you to trust in the sovereignty of God. I am most convinced these things happened ultimately because God, before the foundation of the cosmos, willed Northland to become Southern Baptist. This is part of what we call a God-centered theology. What is surprising is that some of you who are singing the blue’s loudest - I’ve actually heard teach and preach a very God-centered theology - yet I don’t hear that confidence in your words just now. You sound almost…….Arminian! That’s rather surprising knowing where some of you studied.
As always……Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
NewResponse to Joel
Joel,
You seem to be taking an almost fatalistic view of Divine Sovereignty. God is in control, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t matters to be evaluated, or that poor or even wrong decisions weren’t made. To look at another story, God is in control at Mars Hill and over Mark Driscoll. That doesn’t mean that the best or only response is “Praise God that He’s in control and knows what He’s doing!” I mean, to use your response, there isn’t really anything we need to do about anything, since God is in control and all.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Newis there a Northland anymore?
Joel, you speak as if this is merely a transition of Northland to a new phase of existence, but when I read the word “gift” of the facilities to Southern, it sounds more like Northland as such has ceased to exist and Southern (through Boyce College) is expanding north. While some staff/faculty will no doubt remain, the new entity is en entirely new entity.
I am not speaking critically here, I am not sure what options were left after all the bad decisions of the last few years. But to speak of Northland continuing as “part of God’s Kingdom” is perhaps not the right way to think of it. Northland, as I understand it, ceases to exist after the end of this school year.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
NewJoel Tetreau wrote: I would
I’m with Greg, belief and comfort in God’s sovereignty does not negate man’s responsibility or signal God’s approval of what occurred. For example, In 1 Kings God declared through Ahijah that the house of Jeroboam would be completely eliminated — that was his sovereign will — but when Baasha completes that task, he is judged for having done so (1 Kings 16:7, “…because of all the evil that he did in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger with the work of his hands, in being like the house of Jeroboam, and also because he destroyed it.”) Same with Christ and the crucifixion (Mark 14:21, “for the Son of Man goes as it is written of him [God’s sovereignty] but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! [man’s culpability] “).
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