You said, “his [Teachout’s] argument for clean water in Israel (and not needing wine to kill pathogens) is laughable.”
You are wrong on both counts.
The water was drinkable and they knew clean water. There was abundant water available and they drank it; see the Scripture I listed above.
Second, wine does not sterilize water. As I said, I’ve never seen an authority today that makes this claim. Again, your claim is wrong, alcoholic wine does not sanitize bad water.
Some people, when they begin to lose the argument they change the subject, hurl insults, and proclaim themselves the winner. So be it.
By the way, while we may disagree on details, I’m on the side of all who wisely choose to abstain from alcoholic beverages.
David R. Brumbelow
Deuteronomy 8:7
For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and springs, that flow out of valleys and hills;
In biblical times, wine was necessary for health reasons. The risk of amoebae and parasites in drinking water could be significantly reduced or eliminated by mixing the water with a little wine (1 Timothy 5:23).
Sorry, David, but those of us who paid attention in history and science class know that your arguments, as well as Teachout’s, are quite simply nonsense. I disagree with MacArthur on some things (detailed in a comment above), but even most abstentionist fundamentalists get this. This isn’t a personal attack, but just a plain fact.
If you doubt this, talk to a brewmaster, vintner, or water purification expert (say the guy that runs a big city’s water department) about your theories. You’ll hear about the same thing MacArthur says, and about the same thing I’m telling you. The difference is to what extent the response will be “in no uncertain terms”, likely involving words you don’t hear in church very often. Or for that matter, you can google it.
The fact that you even claim to be unaware of any evidence of alcohol purifying water pretty much means (a) you (and Teachout) weren’t paying attention in history or science class, (b) you (and Teachout) never decided to test your theories with subject matter experts on the behavior of yeast and water contamination, and (c) you (and Teachout) never learned enough about the vintner’s or brewer’s art to understand what your ancient sources were really saying.
Take that brewery or winery tour, brother. Nobody’s going to force anything down your throat.
This whole issue in the MacArthur quote has actually made me want to do some basic research! I’m tired of hearing people argue back and forth about it. I’ve heard both sides for years. I actually want to know if it is true or not. I’ll be digging around a bit for some info.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Tyler, the link I provided to Scientific American references a number of studies that establish precisely that. Alcohol, especially in combination with resveratol, does in fact kill, or at least inhibit growth, of many pathogens. It’s not as effective as chlorine, which acts pretty much like Roundup in killing anything in the water, even many viruses, but it does work against many pathogens. Other compounds, like acids and bases, also seem to help (like in sauerkraut).
Here’s how ethanol is supposed to do this. Interestingly, the mechanism is ionic, just like with chlorine. And another source. And one that mentions rum in eggnog. And microbiologists quoted in the LA Times about communion wine. On the flip side, I’ve seen some claims that alcohol, especially in excess, can disrupt the normal bacteria in the GI tract. Can work both ways, really.
Doesn’t mean that one ought to, or must, drink alcohol, but it does mean that all those generations that kept a few bottles on hand to deal with sickness had a reason to do so. We forget so quickly how much of a luxury drinkable tap water really is.
NAPERVILLE, IL—Tired, weak, and ten pounds lighter than when he started, local Calvinist Brett Taylor announced Wednesday that he has successfully completed an intensive three-day fast from all forms of craft beer.
“Man, I’m glad that’s over with,” Taylor told reporters between swills of IPA at Jackson Avenue Pub Wednesday. “I definitely feel like my fast brought me closer to God—like I am more familiar with Christ’s sufferings now.”
Asked for advice for other Reformed brothers and sisters whom he may inspire to attempt the same feat, the 34-year-old cautioned to prepare for a tough ride.
“You have to pray a lot during your time without any porters, ales, IPAs, or stouts. You really have to dig in a pray, confessing your dependence on God. I know it seems impossible to go three whole days without any high-quality, high-alcohol-content brew, but with God all things are possible.”
“Drinking plenty of PBR during the fast also helps a ton,” he added.
Discussion
NewOne more note
Noting that the ancients drank water does not prove that it didn’t harm them from time to time. It simply proves they drank water.
Sorry, but you’ve got zero Scripture references that prove what you want to say. Zero.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
NewPerry Wrong; Teachout Right
Bert Perry,
You said, “his [Teachout’s] argument for clean water in Israel (and not needing wine to kill pathogens) is laughable.”
You are wrong on both counts.
The water was drinkable and they knew clean water. There was abundant water available and they drank it; see the Scripture I listed above.
Second, wine does not sterilize water. As I said, I’ve never seen an authority today that makes this claim. Again, your claim is wrong, alcoholic wine does not sanitize bad water.
Some people, when they begin to lose the argument they change the subject, hurl insults, and proclaim themselves the winner. So be it.
By the way, while we may disagree on details, I’m on the side of all who wisely choose to abstain from alcoholic beverages.
David R. Brumbelow
Deuteronomy 8:7
For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and springs, that flow out of valleys and hills;
NewMacArthur right, Brumbelow wrong
In biblical times, wine was necessary for health reasons. The risk of amoebae and parasites in drinking water could be significantly reduced or eliminated by mixing the water with a little wine (1 Timothy 5:23).
Sorry, David, but those of us who paid attention in history and science class know that your arguments, as well as Teachout’s, are quite simply nonsense. I disagree with MacArthur on some things (detailed in a comment above), but even most abstentionist fundamentalists get this. This isn’t a personal attack, but just a plain fact.
If you doubt this, talk to a brewmaster, vintner, or water purification expert (say the guy that runs a big city’s water department) about your theories. You’ll hear about the same thing MacArthur says, and about the same thing I’m telling you. The difference is to what extent the response will be “in no uncertain terms”, likely involving words you don’t hear in church very often. Or for that matter, you can google it.
The fact that you even claim to be unaware of any evidence of alcohol purifying water pretty much means (a) you (and Teachout) weren’t paying attention in history or science class, (b) you (and Teachout) never decided to test your theories with subject matter experts on the behavior of yeast and water contamination, and (c) you (and Teachout) never learned enough about the vintner’s or brewer’s art to understand what your ancient sources were really saying.
Take that brewery or winery tour, brother. Nobody’s going to force anything down your throat.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
NewBert
This whole issue in the MacArthur quote has actually made me want to do some basic research! I’m tired of hearing people argue back and forth about it. I’ve heard both sides for years. I actually want to know if it is true or not. I’ll be digging around a bit for some info.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
NewSee my link
Tyler, the link I provided to Scientific American references a number of studies that establish precisely that. Alcohol, especially in combination with resveratol, does in fact kill, or at least inhibit growth, of many pathogens. It’s not as effective as chlorine, which acts pretty much like Roundup in killing anything in the water, even many viruses, but it does work against many pathogens. Other compounds, like acids and bases, also seem to help (like in sauerkraut).
Here’s how ethanol is supposed to do this. Interestingly, the mechanism is ionic, just like with chlorine. And another source. And one that mentions rum in eggnog. And microbiologists quoted in the LA Times about communion wine. On the flip side, I’ve seen some claims that alcohol, especially in excess, can disrupt the normal bacteria in the GI tract. Can work both ways, really.
Doesn’t mean that one ought to, or must, drink alcohol, but it does mean that all those generations that kept a few bottles on hand to deal with sickness had a reason to do so. We forget so quickly how much of a luxury drinkable tap water really is.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
NewLeave it to Babylonian Bee!
Leave it to Babylonian Bee!
http://babylonbee.com/news/local-calvinist-completes-three-day-fast-cra…
NAPERVILLE, IL—Tired, weak, and ten pounds lighter than when he started, local Calvinist Brett Taylor announced Wednesday that he has successfully completed an intensive three-day fast from all forms of craft beer.
“Man, I’m glad that’s over with,” Taylor told reporters between swills of IPA at Jackson Avenue Pub Wednesday. “I definitely feel like my fast brought me closer to God—like I am more familiar with Christ’s sufferings now.”
Asked for advice for other Reformed brothers and sisters whom he may inspire to attempt the same feat, the 34-year-old cautioned to prepare for a tough ride.
“You have to pray a lot during your time without any porters, ales, IPAs, or stouts. You really have to dig in a pray, confessing your dependence on God. I know it seems impossible to go three whole days without any high-quality, high-alcohol-content brew, but with God all things are possible.”
“Drinking plenty of PBR during the fast also helps a ton,” he added.