Elizabeth Vargas’ Year-long Investigation into the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church Airs on “20/20,” Friday, April 8, 10-11 PM ET

[Kirk Mellen]

“I would also say that we have seen a documented history of such abuse as being fairly common among IFB churches. Let’s admit that. We can throw stones at the Roman Catholics but tend to avoid admitting this ugly fact about our own group.

The preacher as “man of God” teaching, the emphasis on authority and control, the lack of openness by church leaders, often no accountability for senior pastors, no denominational checks and balances, a persecution mindset and remnant mentality, a tendency toward externals and legalism, emphasis on coporeal punishment — all this can combine to make IFB churches susceptible to such abuse. We need to admit that and work to safeguard our churches from this.

Yes 20/20 will overstate the case but don’t kid yourself into thinking that there isn’t some level of a case to be made that there is a very large problem in this area.”

This is not an IFB problem this is a humanity problem and it is just as common in evangelical churches as it is in IFB churches.

That’s true, saw this about a liberal Presbyterian church in the news the other day.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/vienna-presbyterian-church-works-to…

[Matt Walker] I’ve been told that Mr. Willis repented. I believe that he confessed his sin without details before the church. If I’m wrong on that, please correct me here.

As for when more information may come, I just don’t know. I believe that part of this is tied to the legal system. I also don’t know all the facts of this. I know a few things that were told to me in confidence that I won’t divulge, but I know that I don’t know all the facts. I’m waiting just as you are. However, knowing that there are more facts to be learned, I think it’s wise to withhold judgment. It’s very difficult to determine what is and what is not without knowing all the facts. I think all the impassioned leaps to judgment here are NOT HELPFUL. There are a few people in particular who have a penchant for concluding that “this is just typical of fundamentalism.” I found the “wierdo” posts especially laughable. Has anyone here actually been to a homeschool convention? :) Wierdos are everywhere. People are weird. That’s never going to change.

One last thing…as to this never happening again. While it is our hope that what happened at ABWE and what happened here will never happen again, depravity isn’t going away any time soon. As has already been said, if this situation causes us to think through what we might do differently then maybe some good will come.

Matt

If he repented….he should have turned himself in to the police and admitted his crime. Standing up and saying “I made a mistake” and then people restoring him to his former position is NOT repentance.

Not too long ago, a pastor in the area was caught in a 9month long affair. He repeatedly denied his ongoing affair only to be found out by a love letter his wife found in his wallet. He resigned without declaring his sin. The next week, he stood and gave his explanation. Now, he DEMANDS to be reconciled by all who he hurt. He is back in the ministry elsewhere (not even 2 years after his affair) and speaks out against anyone who did not restore him (not in fellowship but to be a pastor again).

We don’t have a mandatory accountability board in the IFB. If we did, we wouldn’t have “kooks” like this.

What happens in so many cases is that we don’t understand what Repentance is….and therefore, we don’t know what reconciliation or restoration is.

[Susan R]

[Mike Durning]

[PastorTimDelello] Sadly, IFB attracts weirdos and “baser sort” crowds.

It’s something about the psychology of the movement, I think. The black and white absolute thinking, the authoritarian personalities, all lend themselves to abuse of power. This would draw a sociopath like a moth to the flame. And most of the child molesters are sociopaths.

As for the other kinds of weirdos we draw, I have no explanation.

The same dynamic exists http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21392345/ns/us_news-education/ in public schools .

An Associated Press investigation found more than 2,500 cases over five years in which educators were punished for actions from bizarre to sadistic.

There are 3 million public school teachers nationwide, most devoted to their work. Yet the number of abusive educators—nearly three for every school day—speaks to a much larger problem in a system that is stacked against victims.

Most of the abuse never gets reported. Those cases reported often end with no action. Cases investigated sometimes can’t be proven, and many abusers have several victims.

And no one—not the schools, not the courts, not the state or federal governments—has found a surefire way to keep molesting teachers out of classrooms.

So- How many parents are now going to pull their kids from public schools?

Public Schools aren’t purged from their sins. Public Schools aren’t the pillars and ground of truth. Public Schools are not supposed to be the salt and light of the earth.

Christians are. The Church as a whole IS. We are so full of carnality, humanism and pseudo-believers that the public school makes us look good. We are in a hot fire, flat footed mess.

So since they are public schools, we can’t expect them to protect children from predators? I understand that our (Christians) standards of morality and ethics should be much higher than the world’s, but the dynamic that allows predators to walk around abusing at will exists in public schools and society in general. That isn’t going to change unless we DO something to change it. Or don’t kids in public schools deserve to be protected as well?

That isn’t going to change unless we DO something to change it. Or don’t kids in public schools deserve to be protected as well?

You homeschool.

So by the shut-down rhetoric you’ve been using with the rest of us (that we are only “allowed” to speak out against people in our local churches, never about leaders in other churches), then you really shouldn’t concern yourself with this. It has nothing to do with you.

This is also a rabbit trail. It has MUCH, MUCH less to do with the title of this thread (20/20’s Year Long Investigation of the IFB) than when others of us were redacted on the ABWE thread for not staying on topic.

[Rachel L.]

That isn’t going to change unless we DO something to change it. Or don’t kids in public schools deserve to be protected as well?

You homeschool.

So by the shut-down rhetoric you’ve been using with the rest of us (that we are only “allowed” to speak out against people in our local churches, never about leaders in other churches), then you really shouldn’t concern yourself with this. It has nothing to do with you.

I pay property taxes and elect officials in our district to run our local schools. I also tutor kids in the system. Public schools are supported by tax dollars and run by elected officials. Everyone has a stake in the school system at some point.

My main point was that there are environments other than IFB churches that create a warm fuzzy atmosphere for predators. We should isolate and identify those factors in order to craft effective policies of prevention. I would think that you would be supportive of any solid information I share here.

Too many people have made this topic about personalities and not about protecting kids.

The only ‘shut down’ that has occurred here at SI is that we should restrict ourselves to known facts and cut back on speculation. Citing reliable and verifiable sources is one way to do that.

Protecting our children doesn’t begin at church or at the school. Protecting our children is a parental responsibility.

[PastorTimDelello] Protecting our children doesn’t begin at church or at the school. Protecting our children is a parental responsibility.

And when we give temporary guardianship of our children to a Sunday School teacher, youth leader, traditional school teacher, baby-sitter, or relative, we should do everything in our power to ensure that our kids are going to be in good hands.

[Bob] But, supposing Vargas is unfair? What if she drops the word “alleged” and flatly accuses all IFB across the board of abuse? What if she presents IFB pastors across the board as if they are all alike rapists? Some will say it’s a form of suffering.

There are ways to skew a story that go way beyond dropping the “alleged.” Artfully chosen quotes, artfully edited interviews, chosing what witness testimony to incude and what to omit, even the way you frame a question to an interviewee.

[Bob] Fine. It will be suffering. And so it should be. But it’s not suffering for what is right.

I’m surprised to see Bob looking at the whole thing as though the suffering dealt by media must either be for what’s right or for what’s wrong. It’s not that simple. He usually thinks more clearly.

If you take 10 Packer fans at random and 3 of them are drunks, and then you do an expose in which you represent all Packer fans as thieves, are the Packer fans suffering for wrong or suffering for right? Clearly neither.

In a loose network of churches each of which believes passionately in autonomy, it’s pretty hard to see how Packer fans in general are responsible for the three at all. One body or not, we have no mechanism for controlling what happens in other churches.

(For the metaphor challenged, I’m not really talking about Packer fans)

I read Bob Bixby’s article. He correctly affirms toward the end that the ultimate destruction in cases such as these is the diminished glory of God, and only sincere, godly people really care about His diminished glory. The public, generally speaking, does not nuance IFB, SBC, IFCA, EVF, Evangelical, Conservative Evangelical, et. al. The public sees a Christian church. Thus, it is the name of Christ that is damaged in all these things. The public will feel somewhat self-righteous when they see these stories aired on national television. They will conclude that morally they are not as bad as so-and-so and use it as another justification to not attend any Christian church or accept any so-called gospel. That is a tragedy that has eternal consequences.

There are many victims in these stories who need our prayers. First and foremost the young girl(s), their family, the congregation, the family of the perpetrator (wife and children), the thousands (millions?) of godly Christians who endeavor to live holy and godly lives and raise their families in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. If ever there was a time to act in accordance with 1 Corinthians 13, now is the time.

Certainly these cases demand moral outrage, but if that is our only reaction then the damage done by the perversion will be multiplied several times over by the nurtured bitterness and obsessive-compulsive rage. Certainly there must be outrage, but also courage, understanding, forgiveness, wisdom, resolve to prevent future incidents, candor, hope, tears, and yes love. Love is patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, is not proud, is not rude, is not self-seeking, is not easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs, does not delight in evil, rejoices with the truth, love protects and trusts and hopes and endures (1 Cor 13:4—7). Without the regenerating grace of God, it will be impossible for us to react in a truly godly and scriptural manner.

I think Bixby was spot on!

Aaron, THE CHURCH IS NOT A FOOTBALL TEAM. Your analogy breaks down the moment you typed the first letters. YOU DO have an obligation. I have an obligation. We do have a mechanism for, not controlling, but certainly influencing what happens in other churches and we use it ALL THE TIME in fundamentalism. It’s called separation. And maybe someone here (and someone at the Wilds, and someone at Northland, and someone at BJU) should consider using it for something other than CCM and associations with John Piper.

Louise… thanks for helping me out there. I kind of thought for a bit there that we really were a big football team. The all caps helps, too. Might not have got it otherwise.

As for separation, you kind of have to have a relationship before you can end it.
…and you kind of have to know whether you should end it or not. For my part, I have no cooperative relationship with anybody I know to be guilty of child abuse or of covering up child abuse.

These ideas evaporate pretty quickly when you start to work through how they would be implemented.

Just finished watching the 20/20 thing. It was about what I expected from 20/20. Everything is arranged to fit their chosen narrative. No new information at all. I was kind of hoping at least one or two new facts would be brought to light. I guess when the Concorde police are done with their investigation we’ll have a chance to see what was reported by Pastor Phelps.

Prediction: until there is actually new information, pretty much everybody who believed a particular version of events before will keep believing it. Pretty much everybody who was reserving judgment (all three of us) will continue to reserve it.
Sadly, millions who knew nothing about it now have only 20/20’s narrative… “IFB” is like some kind of denomination/cult full of hidden evil. It’s impossible to disprove an accusation that something is being covered up. So that one’s going to be around for a good while I’m afraid.

(Has anybody ever heard of a cult with no leader?!)

The whole business is sad.
I look forward to the day the Judge of All the Earth sorts it out. I’m glad its His job and not mine.

Do you believe that the words “Independent, Fundamental, Baptist,” having been so closely tied to the Hyles sex scandals of the past and the sex, physical abuse scandals of the present, could ever serve as a helpful way for a church to identify itself again?

Do we need Interdependent, Bible-believing churches instead of Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Churches?

Pastor Phelps had made earlier statements about a covert dating relationship and that it was consensual?

[DavidO] Pastor Phelps had made earlier statements about a covert dating relationship and that it was consensual?

No…that was a new way of presenting his version of things.