Always enjoy Kevin’s take on the history of fundamentalism. I think he has evaluated Rice correctly. Humanly speaking, I owe a great debt to John R Rice. My Grandmother was saved at a Rice tent meeting in Waterloo, Iowa.
Kevin, thank you for the history lesson. I was not aware of the Chafer/Rice controversy, but Rice’s response helps me to better understand the “revivalist mindset” that comes from a certain segment of fundamentalism and why so much negative baggage comes along with it. The sad part is that I fear that these revivalistic manipulators (Hyles etal) have done more to turn people off to evangelism than hypercalvanism has.
The core of Rice’s argument was that effective evangelism requires a special, post-conversion anointing or infilling of the Holy Spirit, known as the baptism with the Holy Ghost (Acts. 1:5). This baptism with or in the Spirit is not identical to the baptism by the Spirit, which places believers into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Rather, the baptism in the Spirit is an enduement of power for service and especially for soul-winning
I’m not sure fools is a fair characterization. Some people knew/know no other Christianity than the one in which they were converted and/or raised. It’s the “fish don’t know they’re wet” principle. And if they take seriously (if apply misguidedly) passages like “Love believes, hopes, endures all,” “Be wise as serpents but harmless,” “Love covers a multitude of sins,” etc, can you imagine intelligent people going the wrong direction?
I am frankly flabbergasted to read someone assert that Dr. Rice “deliberately divorced” the power of the Holy Spirit from sanctification. That is completely false. Dr. Rice strongly emphasized sanctification as a necessary pre-requisite for that power. I heard him teach that in person many times. It is entirely possible to disagree with Dr. Rice’s position on the fullness of the Spirit, and many people do, but it should be done honestly rather than by completely mis-characterizing what he taught.
Robert, I just reread what Dr. Bauder wrote. Please consider this statement that he made about Rice’s position on the Spirit’s anointing/infilling:
It is obtained through obedience, pleading with God, and waiting upon Him.
I have seen this view in the revivalist approach before. I read the biography of Reese Howels and this was very similar to his ideas. Even though Howels did not use the money he raised for what he said he would do, it was overlooked because of results. His idea of getting the Spirit’s power by pleading, obedience, and waiting is much different than the idea of simply submitting to the Spirit and letting God use us through His power.
The real problem that I see is that the revivalist approach gives much credit to the man for being able to “get” the Spirit. I believe the Biblical approach is to give God all the glory for the power, recognizing that He could have used a rock instead of me, but that as I obey and grow in sanctification, I am better able to bring glory to the Lord by not resisting the Spirit’s work in my life.
The simple way to say it is to suggest that the one is more of a man centered approach while the other is more of a God centered approach. That does not mean that those who focus more on man’s role are not concerned with sanctification. Rather it is that the implications of the the teaching can lead to the elevation of the man by thinking that he had reached some special level of sanctification through his own works; therefore, we should overlook the sins he has not yet gotten victory over.
The more Biblical approach is to recognize that since God could use even a rock to cry out, He could use a sinful man and we should thus not excuse the sin for any reason.
Yes, I think these ideas are older than Rice. I don’t doubt he did much to popularize them. But wasn’t D.L. Moody pretty close in his view of things? I’m unable to cite the particulars, but I seem to recall a pretty strong emphasis from him on the whole special endouement (“anointing”?) with power idea.
… and isn’t about 3/5 of it classic holiness movement teaching?
As for
I am frankly flabbergasted to read someone assert that Dr. Rice “deliberately divorced” the power of the Holy Spirit from sanctification
You misread him there. KB’s point is that Rice taught that this particular special HS, soul-winning power is distinct from sanctification. He is not saying that Rice taught sanctification was separate from the power of the Spirit. (KB also sited a published source on that point. It’s a bit reckless to characterize the observation as dishonest)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I have been reading Chafer’s True Evangelism. I can understand why Rice was so incensed by the book. Chafer despised “methods” in evangelistic preaching. Consider this small excerpt:
Many serious men have concluded that to send out workers to plead with individuals in a miscellaneous congregation is not only embarrassing to the people thus approached, but is, in the majority of cases, a service which hardens and repels. Forced decisions sometimes follow such appeals. These, they observe, are usually premature and unintelligent decisions; for in such methods there can be no certainty concerning the conviction by the Spirit and no very definite dependence upon His leading. On the other hand, the many who have resisted the personal appeal have been hardened or driven away.
Public methods which embarrass any person or class of persons may be not only useless but intrusive. There is little gained by inviting all Christians in a public gathering to stand, thus forcing all others into a conspicuous position, causing them annoyance and creating an occasion for prejudice. It is not strange that intelligent unsaved people sometimes avoid meetings where these methods are employed. By adopting such a program the evangelist or pastor may be hindering the very work of God which he is attempting to do.
The sincere evangelist who fearlessly judges, before God, every method he employs — judging them as to their exact value or possible harm in their influence on immortal souls — will find that many methods in evangelism are more a habit than a necessity, or that they have been employed in an effort to produce visible results, rather than to create a means by which sin-burdened souls may find rest and peace through a personal and intelligent faith in Christ as Saviour.
Finally, consider the difference in the way an “invitation” was done by Chafer. Contrast it with the “methods” frequently employed by fundamentalists of a certain stripe:
The real value of public methods may be secured and many evils avoided if, after explaining the way of life and during a season of silent prayer, the unsaved are asked to accept Christ by a conscious act of the will, directed in definite silent prayer to God. Such a decision may then be greatly strengthened by an immediate public confession of Christ. The vital difference in question is, however, that such are then confessing that they have believed on Christ, rather than making a confession in order that they may be saved. After such an appeal, an opportunity should be made for personal conversation with any who believe they have accepted Christ by faith, or any others who may have honest difficulties. In this conversation the individual’s exact understanding of the step may be ascertained and his faith strengthened. Such conversations may be secured early in an after-meeting, or by offering some attractive literature suited to beginners in the Christian life. When it is clear that an intelligent decision has been made, constant confession of Christ as a personal Saviour, should be urged along with the other duties and privileges of the new life.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Tyler, thank you for the Chafer quotes. I want to get that book. It sounds like he and I share a very similar view of the invitation. It is really the difference between preaching and trusting the power of God to work in peoples lives vs preaching and then trusting the power of persuasion. The power of persuasion can get some people to buy a “Sham Wow” or a Ronco food processor, but it takes the power of God to convert a soul from lost to saved.
Don, thanks for the link. After seeing that, I figured I’d better order quick before the price went up, but I decided to check with half.com first. I got my copy for 75 cents plus $3.49 shipping.
Discussion
NewJohn R Rice
Always enjoy Kevin’s take on the history of fundamentalism. I think he has evaluated Rice correctly. Humanly speaking, I owe a great debt to John R Rice. My Grandmother was saved at a Rice tent meeting in Waterloo, Iowa.
Donn R Arms
NewThe principle
of “touch not the Lord’s anointed” is an acid that corroded the influence of that wing of Fundamentalism.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
NewKevin, thank you for the
Kevin, thank you for the history lesson. I was not aware of the Chafer/Rice controversy, but Rice’s response helps me to better understand the “revivalist mindset” that comes from a certain segment of fundamentalism and why so much negative baggage comes along with it. The sad part is that I fear that these revivalistic manipulators (Hyles etal) have done more to turn people off to evangelism than hypercalvanism has.
NewInteresting
I was unaware of Rice’s position of:
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewObservation
For ever leader of this type, it takes scores of fools to follow them.
What would their profile be?
Twitter
Jim's Doctrinal Statement
NewI'm not sure fools is a fair
I’m not sure fools is a fair characterization. Some people knew/know no other Christianity than the one in which they were converted and/or raised. It’s the “fish don’t know they’re wet” principle. And if they take seriously (if apply misguidedly) passages like “Love believes, hopes, endures all,” “Be wise as serpents but harmless,” “Love covers a multitude of sins,” etc, can you imagine intelligent people going the wrong direction?
NewStartling Misrepresentation
I am frankly flabbergasted to read someone assert that Dr. Rice “deliberately divorced” the power of the Holy Spirit from sanctification. That is completely false. Dr. Rice strongly emphasized sanctification as a necessary pre-requisite for that power. I heard him teach that in person many times. It is entirely possible to disagree with Dr. Rice’s position on the fullness of the Spirit, and many people do, but it should be done honestly rather than by completely mis-characterizing what he taught.
NewRobert, I just reread what
Robert, I just reread what Dr. Bauder wrote. Please consider this statement that he made about Rice’s position on the Spirit’s anointing/infilling:
I have seen this view in the revivalist approach before. I read the biography of Reese Howels and this was very similar to his ideas. Even though Howels did not use the money he raised for what he said he would do, it was overlooked because of results. His idea of getting the Spirit’s power by pleading, obedience, and waiting is much different than the idea of simply submitting to the Spirit and letting God use us through His power.
The real problem that I see is that the revivalist approach gives much credit to the man for being able to “get” the Spirit. I believe the Biblical approach is to give God all the glory for the power, recognizing that He could have used a rock instead of me, but that as I obey and grow in sanctification, I am better able to bring glory to the Lord by not resisting the Spirit’s work in my life.
The simple way to say it is to suggest that the one is more of a man centered approach while the other is more of a God centered approach. That does not mean that those who focus more on man’s role are not concerned with sanctification. Rather it is that the implications of the the teaching can lead to the elevation of the man by thinking that he had reached some special level of sanctification through his own works; therefore, we should overlook the sins he has not yet gotten victory over.
The more Biblical approach is to recognize that since God could use even a rock to cry out, He could use a sinful man and we should thus not excuse the sin for any reason.
NewOlder
Yes, I think these ideas are older than Rice. I don’t doubt he did much to popularize them. But wasn’t D.L. Moody pretty close in his view of things? I’m unable to cite the particulars, but I seem to recall a pretty strong emphasis from him on the whole special endouement (“anointing”?) with power idea.
… and isn’t about 3/5 of it classic holiness movement teaching?
As for
You misread him there. KB’s point is that Rice taught that this particular special HS, soul-winning power is distinct from sanctification. He is not saying that Rice taught sanctification was separate from the power of the Spirit. (KB also sited a published source on that point. It’s a bit reckless to characterize the observation as dishonest)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
NewChafer is Right
I have been reading Chafer’s True Evangelism. I can understand why Rice was so incensed by the book. Chafer despised “methods” in evangelistic preaching. Consider this small excerpt:
Finally, consider the difference in the way an “invitation” was done by Chafer. Contrast it with the “methods” frequently employed by fundamentalists of a certain stripe:
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
NewRead The.
Read ”The Notion of a Clergyman” and you’ll stop having to wonder.
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/ECCLESIA/01003E.html
NewTyler, thank you for the
Tyler, thank you for the Chafer quotes. I want to get that book. It sounds like he and I share a very similar view of the invitation. It is really the difference between preaching and trusting the power of God to work in peoples lives vs preaching and then trusting the power of persuasion. The power of persuasion can get some people to buy a “Sham Wow” or a Ronco food processor, but it takes the power of God to convert a soul from lost to saved.
Newfound a copy here
Real Cheap! I think I’ll wait for a sale.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Newa better price range
True Evangelism
NewDon, thanks for the link.
Don, thanks for the link. After seeing that, I figured I’d better order quick before the price went up, but I decided to check with half.com first. I got my copy for 75 cents plus $3.49 shipping.