The Pursuit of Excellence in Conservative Christian Music

I do want to raise a question, though: What do you want to accomplish?

If you’re goal is to persuade people who are potentially persuadable on this topic
. . . then you kind of do “have to prove” some things.

Whenever we are trying to persuade people to consider another point of view—or even just trying to teach them something—we have to make a case for it. Part of that case is understanding what they see as strong as evidence.

If what I see as strong evidence is not what my hearers see as strong evidence, I have two options:

• Use evidence they see as more weighty.
• Persuade them that the evidence I have is more weighty then they think.

That second response is going to take some work, and usually includes a measure of proving our own skills… or other ethos arguments.

If, in the end, an audience can’t see the value of your evidence, you have to use different evidence, or just give up.

In this particular thread, I want to have an extended discussion with you about your approach to the music questions.

Rajesh, I "interpose" into threads because first of all, I'm a member here, and second of all, because at times I think you're introducing some serious errors, starting with basic logic. One of the consistent things I notice is that you do not hesitate to make guilt by association errors, and you also do not hesitate to make personal attacks.

If you want to demonstrate to me that you don't understand why genetic fallacies are fallacies, you're doing a great job, but no sound hermeneutic can rest on genetic fallacies.

I have no interest in demonstrating anything to you and have no need to do so.

I believe that you are totally wrong in what you say. You believe that I am wrong. It's time for you to accept that impasse and move on. The choice is yours.

If you continue to make false statements about me, I will continue to respond to your falsehoods.

For many centuries, prior to the age of Enlightenment, the musical center of culture was in “the church.” Because of a predominantly God-centeredness in its outlook in western civilizations, the church was the primary shaper of cultural expressions, including music.

Joos seems to think that it was better when we had a state church, because at least the music was good. I'm sure the Baptists who were persecuted for refusing to sprinkle their babies were comforted by the thought that their taxes were paying for top tier church musicians.

[pvawter said:] When I have asked for specific guidelines that can be used by the average pastor with slightly above average musical skills in determining which music is appropriate, I am left with little more than blank stares. I guess each church just needs to hire a trained musicologist to make the decisions on a piece by piece basis.

There have been several good books that have been written that can provide you with help with these matters. Have you done any research on this subject?

Moreover, why do you believe that trained musicologists are the ones who have the answers. I do not find any basis in Scripture for holding that musicological expertise is what is essential to know what is and isn't pleasing to God.

[THoward said:] What constitutes "godly music" continues to be fervently argued ad nauseum by (IMHO) those with too much time on their hands. Quite frankly, at this point it's a waste of time and energy to launch into and trace the arguments of another 14+ page discussion on this topic. (How many such music threads do we currently have on SI?) I agree that the 2014 Shai Linne / Scott Aniol discussion was edifying and revealing. Beyond that, the argument ultimately breaks down to one claiming God's imprimatur on one's music preferences.

How many threads do we currently have that fervently argue "ad nauseum" why a particular political candidate in this upcoming election is such a vile person whom no Christian should support?

Learning directly from the Bible all that we can about what music pleases God in worship is absolutely a very important subject that God's people need to discuss at great length.

How about you participate in as many threads as interest you and you consider to be important and allow others to participate in as many threads as they wish about the subjects that interest them and they believe are important?

How many threads do we currently have that fervently argue "ad nauseum" why a particular political candidate in this upcoming election is such a vile person whom no Christian should support?

Because the presidential election is in a little over a month, the topic remains relevant. After the election, those particular discussions will cease (I hope).

The current disagreement over worship music and worship styles has been going on since at least the 1970s. At this point, there are no new arguments being made. Same arguments for and same arguments against particular musical styles. They just get recirculated and repackaged.

Time to move on.

Learning directly from the Bible all that we can about what music pleases God in worship is absolutely a very important subject that God's people need to discuss at great length.

I agree that Christians need to learn all we can about anything the Bible says. However, the Bible says only certain things about most issues. We don't get to fill in the blanks with our preferences or opinions and stamp God's imprimatur on them. That is the history and pattern of these discussions about worship music and worship styles, at least on SI.

How about you participate in as many threads as interest you and you consider to be important and allow others to participate in as many threads as they wish about the subjects that interest them and they believe are important?

That is what I do, brother. And, my discussion with you in this thread is coming to a conclusion very soon.

There have been several good books that have been written that can provide you with help with these matters. Have you done any research on this subject?

Moreover, why do you believe that trained musicologists are the ones who have the answers. I do not find any basis in Scripture for holding that musicological expertise is what is essential to know what is and isn't pleasing to God.

These two paragraphs illustrate the problem perfectly. On one hand, if I want specific answers to which types of music are acceptable in Christian worship and which are put of bounds, I must read books (presumably written by those with expertise on the matter). On the other hand, I am told there's no reason to rely on musically trained experts to know specifically whether a song or style is acceptable. This is by definition a "no-win" situation.

By the way, Rajesh, I was speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek about musicologists. I am glad that you agree with me that musical expertise is not necessary for us to decide what music is acceptable in worship. We can instead exercise our Christian liberty and godly wisdom in applying the basic principles found in God's word. Maybe the worship wars can finally be over.

I think reading on the subject is helpful. These are books I've read about corporate worship that have been helpful in my thinking on the topic:

Ligon Duncan, Does God Care How We Worship?

Bob Kauflin, Worship Matters: Leading Others to Encounter the Greatness of God

Matt Merker, Corporate Worship: How the Church Gathers as God's People

Allen P. Ross, Recalling the Hope of Glory: Biblical Worship from the Garden to the New Creation

What other books should I consider?

Regarding that great pre-Enlightenment music, there are a few things to note. First of all, the professional music of the Middle Ages--Gregorian chant and such--is something of a niche appeal at this point, and there is (Carmina Burana and such) also clear evidence of quite a bit of secular music that appears to have influenced quite a bit of Reformation/Enlightenment era music, e.g. Madrigals.

There is also a wealth of music where the custom of hiring professionals persisted into the Reformation--e.g. Bach, Handel, etc..--and what's worth noting is that this is also something of a niche appeal (apart from abuse of Bach's Toccata & Fugue and Handel's Halleluiah Chorus), and this also tends to be somewhat beyond the ability of ordinary musicians in the church to sing and play.

Plus, there is, again, a great amount of other music that derives from that age. So I would dispute Joos' notion that into the 1700s, the church really did drive the development of music.

That changed, to a degree, with the re-introduction of congregational singing, especially among the Puritans and Methodists.

What's better? Well, there is evidence of professional musicians in the Temple, and there is evidence of congregational singing, so I'm at a loss as to which is more important. My personal bias, though, is to note that just as I can sing commercial jingles from when I was a child, that congregational singing can be uniquely powerful in conveying Biblical and theological ideas.

Lacking any hints from Scripture about exactly what characterized music of the day--except for being danceable and singable, really--I think we're at a point where as long as it works to convey the lyrical concepts to the congregation, we have a great deal of freedom in music. Even rap, even if I can't do it well.

I agree that Christians need to learn all we can about anything the Bible says. However, the Bible says only certain things about most issues. We don't get to fill in the blanks with our preferences or opinions and stamp God's imprimatur on them. That is the history and pattern of these discussions about worship music and worship styles, at least on SI.

You say that "we do not get to fill in the blanks with our preferences and opinions." Advocate of contemporary worship music routinely engage in all kinds of faulty presuppositions, assumptions, and assertions with no biblical support in order to support their positions.

Challenging those faulty claims with the Bible itself is a much-needed aspect of the discussion that has been greatly lacking in the past.

I think reading on the subject is helpful. These are books I've read about corporate worship that have been helpful in my thinking on the topic:

Ligon Duncan, Does God Care How We Worship?

Bob Kauflin, Worship Matters: Leading Others to Encounter the Greatness of God

Matt Merker, Corporate Worship: How the Church Gathers as God's People

Allen P. Ross, Recalling the Hope of Glory: Biblical Worship from the Garden to the New Creation

What other books should I consider?

Interesting list. I am only familiar with Kauflin's work, which I find to be decidedly wanting in substantive biblical treatment that supports his views about contemporary worship music.

Have you written anything about your take on the other works that you mention here?

Concerning other works to consider, given what you have already shared about your perspectives, I think that you have already come to settled views. I am doubtful, therefore, that you would find any of the works that I might recommend to be helpful.

Nonetheless, here are some works that you might consider to learn more about those who hold opposing positions to yours:

John Makujina, "Measuring the Music: Another Look at the Contemporary Christian Music Debate"

Scott Aniol, "Worship in Song: A Biblical Approach to Music and Worship"

Randy Leedy, "Love Not the World: Winning the War against Worldliness"

Douglas Bachorik, "New Heart, New Spirit, New Song"

Have you written anything about your take on the other works that you mention here?

Concerning other works to consider, given what you have already shared about your perspectives, I think that you have already come to settled views. I am doubtful, therefore, that you would find any of the works that I might recommend to be helpful.

My only settled conviction about worship is best represented by the regulative principle. This is what Ligon Duncan argues for in his book and what Matt Merker assumes throughout his book.

For context, I pastor an SBC church that uses traditional worship music (i.e. traditional and contemporary hymns) in our services. For now, we use the piano as our primary instrumental accompaniment. Lord willing, we will be adding acoustic guitar soon.

I'm familiar with the arguments made by the authors of your recommended book list. I spent some time reading and considering Scott's position in 2014. I didn't find all of his conclusions Scripturally convincing.

You say that "we do not get to fill in the blanks with our preferences and opinions." Advocate of contemporary worship music routinely engage in all kinds of faulty presuppositions, assumptions, and assertions with no biblical support in order to support their positions.

What I said was, "We don't get to fill in the blanks with our preferences or opinions and stamp God's imprimatur on them."

We all have preferences or opinions about worship music and worship styles, but it is only one side of the argument that attempts to claim God's imprimatur on a particular European musical style for the worldwide church for all time.

the nature of his false claims about me are such that not answering him would make it look like I have accepted that he is right in what he is (falsely) saying about me

No, it really wouldn’t at this point.

May I suggest that any of you who have questions or comments about the content of Taigen Joos' article respond to him at Proclaim and Defend. So far there are no responses there and it seems evident that he does not read SI. P and D would probably like the attention as well as few of their articles seem to get commented on.